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ASHLYNNE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ashlynne McGhee. This is 7am.

The tasering of a 95-year-old grandmother, the double-murder of a Surry Hills couple, the Bruce Lehrmann defamation trial and now, the spike in domestic violence.

These are some of the biggest stories in Australia over the past 12 months, and all of them have drawn in this one very powerful woman: Karen Webb, the Commissioner of New South Wales Police.

The veteran cop has found herself at press conferences and interviews having to defend herself and the force to a national audience.

Today, senior reporter for The Saturday Paper Rick Morton, on who Karen Webb really is and how she climbed her way through the vipers nest of the NSW police force.

It’s Friday, May 10.

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ASHLYNNE:

Rick, people all around the country would have been seeing a whole lot more of NSW Police Commissioner Karen Webb than they’re probably used to. So to start with, talk me through the events that have thrust her into the spotlight.

RICK:

I mean, I guess unless you're a seasoned cop watcher, the name Karen Webb really didn't mean anything to you except for maybe a few grabs on the nightly news during her first year as NSW Commissioner, but I guess you could probably say that people started to see a lot more of her almost exactly a year ago. Around this time in May last year when the 95 year old great grandmother, Claire Nolan, was tased, allegedly by a NSW police officer. And she died a week later in hospital.

Audio excerpt — ABC News:

“The elderly woman who was tasered by a NSW police officer in the state’s Snowy Mountain region has died in hospital. The announcement came just hours after the officer who tasered her at her nursing home in Cooma, was charged.”

RICK:

Now, Karen Webb, who's been in the job really just for a year at this point, found herself very early on defending not only obviously, the conduct, the alleged conduct of her own officers, but also the early media release that was drafted by the NSW Police media team and the former spin doctor there Liz Deegan, and approved by the deputy commissioner, David Hudson, which went out to journalists to indicate that something had gone on in Cooma at the nursing home there. But that release made no mention whatsoever of the fact that a taser, a police taser, had been deployed, and it made no mention of the fact that an officer's employment was, at that point, currently under review.

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“I'd like to start by saying that we all care for and share the concerns for what happened to Mrs Nolan in Cooma, and we all want to know and understand what happened.”

RICK:

And Webb later said that this was because Nolan's large extended family had not been informed of the manner in which she had been hospitalised and that police did not want that family learning of it from the media.

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“Well firstly, there is a need, immediate need, that the family were notified first and that was respect for the family. They've got a big family that is dispersed around New South Wales and other places, and that took some time.”

RICK:

But of course, senior officers had already attended the hospital where Claire Nolan was at that point. And later that week, on a Saturday morning, Webb again found herself right in the middle of the media spotlight during this investigation, when she was asked whether she should watch the body cam footage, and Webb told reporters at that May 20 press conference “I don't really intend to, no.”

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“I've heard what's in the body worn, and I don't see it necessary that I actually view it.”

RICK:

Now, of course, that made a lot of people very angry, because it seemed to them to suggest a commissioner who just didn't want to see for herself the cold, hard reality of what had happened. Her defenders say that she was actually just trying to project this kind of impartial confidence in the investigative process and that if she had to make a decision, she didn't want that to have been, I guess, infected by any view that she might have formed by watching that footage. But really, this is the first moment that she burst onto the public consciousness as the commissioner for the country's largest and oldest police force.

Audio excerpt — Nine News:

“The bodies of Jesse Baird and Luke Davies have finally been found, a week after the couple disappeared from a Paddington home."

RICK:

And then, of course, after that, she becomes embroiled in more national global stories, including the alleged double murder of a couple in Surrey Hills by a serving police officer.

Audio excerpt — A Current Affair:

“Why did it take you three days to front up over an alleged double murder involving one of your own?"

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“Yeah, well Deb, as you point out, it's been a very active investigation, and it's only been today that we've located the bodies of Jesse and Luke.”

RICK:

Then her spin doctor becoming embroiled in the Bruce Lehrmann defamation trial.

Audio excerpt — 10 News:

“The senior media adviser just hired by the New South Wales Police Force has lost the job before he even got started. The appointment of former Channel Seven journalist Steve Jackson on an interim basis has been marred by controversy.”

RICK:

This spate of stabbing attacks in Sydney.

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“About 3:30 this afternoon, a male with a knife entered the Westfield shopping centre at Bondi Junction.”

RICK:

And of course, the greatest ongoing role in crisis in policing, which is the spike in domestic violence, including the alleged murder of Molly Ticehurst in New South Wales.

Audio excerpt — Seven News:

“The Premier has ordered an urgent review of New South Wales bail laws following this week's murder of Forbes mother, Molly Ticehurst. Her accused killer was freed by a court earlier this month, a decision made by a registrar who was standing in for a magistrate.”

RICK:

All of which happened in April.

ASHLYNNE:

In so many of these stories, Karen Webb's become such a public figure and she's really copped it from some sections of the media and the public. Why do you think that is, Rick?

RICK:

She just hasn't really played the game that so many of her predecessors have played, which is courting, particularly the right wing conservative media, we're talking talkback radio station 2GB, The Daily Telegraph, which is the major daily tabloid in Sydney. She hasn't really done that in the way that her predecessors Mick Fuller and Andrew Scipione did. But there's also no doubt that some of her woes have been self-inflicted. Now, if you go back to the double murder of the Surry Hills couple, which happened right on the eve of Mardi Gras, you've got all this tension between the police and the queer community, and you've got this horrific act of violence, which is allegedly conducted by one of their own officers and Karen Webb again comes under increasing media scrutiny about why she's remained quiet for apparently so long into this investigation and then comes out and is asked about all of this stuff on breakfast television. And she invokes the touring mega pop star Taylor Swift to say, you know, haters are going to hate.

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“There will always be haters. Haters like to hate, isn’t that what Taylor says? But I've got a job to do. As I said, it's a big job. This is just one of many jobs. We actually had seven, excuse me, seven murders last week.”

RICK:

And of course, it's just so tone deaf in the context of what has just happened.

Audio excerpt — Karen Webb:

“I'm the Commissioner. The, like I said, the haters are gonna hate and I've got the confidence of the Minister and the Premier and I've got a job to do. And really, as I said, the important thing, this is really about these families, and not just the families, the friends, and the gay community.”

RICK:

And of course, this then segues into another element of the criticism, which is that Karen Webb doesn't know how to handle the media and has therefore blamed her own spin doctors for letting her down. So Liz Deegan, who we mentioned helped draft the Claire Nolan taser police media release, she's been sacked by Karen Webb, and now there's a new adviser being brought in in the process of being hired. He’s basically signed the documents, they're doing the final checks and his name’s Steve Jackson, and he's just about to start when he gets dragged in by a bitter former colleague Taylor Auerbach, who signs an affidavit, several affidavits, in the defamation proceedings involving Bruce Lemon and Channel 10. Auerbach makes no secret of the fact that he hates Steve Jackson and has been backgrounding media about Steve Jackson's appointment to the $300,000 a year job in Karen Webb's office. And Steve Jackson's position is then terminated. This is her fourth spin doctor since she became commissioner in early 2022. And now after Steve Jackson was terminated, she's onto her fifth chief media adviser in just two years and that is just a temporary appointment.

ASHLYNNE:

Okay, so she clearly has a bit of a media problem. She doesn't have good relationships with her media advisers or journalists, by the sound of it. But parking that for a moment, what kind of police commissioner is she?

RICK:

So this is where things get really interesting. It's the oldest police force in the country, as I mentioned, and she is the first woman commissioner in its 160 year history. And there is this, still, after all these decades, this huge cultural and policy shift that needs to happen. And in saying all of that, she's kind of come into this position against two other blokes who were vying for the top job. She's got it unexpectedly and to rise through what many people call the kind of vipers nest of the internal politicking to get those top jobs is both an achievement and also a source of ongoing ammunition, I guess, for people who want to bring her down.

ASHLYNNE:

After the break, what does Karen Webb’s rise through a viper’s nest tell us about the kind police officer she is?

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ASHLYNNE:

So Rick, this job of New South Wales Police Commissioner, you've said that being in that seat can expose you to a bit of a vipers nest. Tell me more about why that's the reputation of the job.

RICK:

This is what I'm really interested about in this story. Like, you know, there's really no one in politics who knows that better than Federal Greens Senator and former NSW upper house member David Shoebridge, who was actually involved in this series of ongoing inquiries into the NSW police force. And he said to me, he said, some of the most unprincipled and aggressive internal politics that I've ever seen occurs in the upper reaches of the NSW Police Force. The biggest example of this really, and it was kind of consumed so much in my early career when I was working in Sydney for mainstream newspapers, was the tussle for succession that happened when Andrew Scipione was commissioner and he was commissioner for ten years from 2007. Now he kind of had two popular choices for successor. His anointed successor was Cat Burn, who at one time headed the Internal Investigations Unit, and she had a counterterrorism, which is an important string in the bow of anyone who wants to lead the NSW Police force. But also, she was going head to head it essentially with another deputy commissioner, Nick Kaldas. And to say that it was bad blood between them doesn't really do it justice. They hated each other. The main source of anger between the two of them is 2000 Sydney Olympics. The city is on show, everyone's having the time of their lives. So I've been told I watched it at home in Queensland. But everyone was apparently very happy and the city was very proud of itself. But at that time, in September 2000, there is a secret warrant drawn up – it's called the Bell Warrant – to secretly tape, bug and otherwise record, covertly, 112 serving police officers and two civilians by this kind of Operation Mascot. Now the team leader of Operation Mascot in the internal division of the NSW Police Force was Cat Burn. She was involved in authorising this warrant. She had people, more senior people above who were her bosses, but she was the team leader. One of the 46 people who were named on that warrant, who should never have been on that warrant because there was no valid reason for them to have been on that warrant, was Nick Kaldas. Both of them became deputy commissioners. Both of them have hated each other ever since. Cat Burn previously said that she had a reasonable suspicion that he was involved in corruption, which she admitted under parliamentary inquiries, deputy chaired by David Shoebridge, that that is now false and she accepts that that was a false suspicion, but she said that she held it reasonably at the time. And Kaldas, of course, says that Cat Burn used the secret power of that job to bring down her enemies and the enemies of her allies. He was cleared completely by that inquiry deputy chaired by Shoebridge, his name should never been on that warrant. The warrant was not validly held and it became this weeping sore within NSW Police that just never closed. Kaldas leaves the force very shortly after the parliamentary inquiry. Cat Burn stays, but doesn't get the top job. That goes to a guy called Mick Fuller. So the two big contenders are just, they're gone, and Mick Fuller reigns supreme.

ASHLYNNE:

So that's quite a lot of drama for Mick Fuller getting to the top job. Is there as much drama to the story of Karen Webb getting to the top job?

RICK:

Yeah. I mean, there was never not going to be, right? So Mick Fuller, there are those who believed that Mick Fuller had his own favourites, as you tend to do when you're in those jobs. Now, Mick Fuller also apparently broke what is unwritten convention within the NSW Police is that if you know you're going, and he did, he'd announced his retirement by April 2022, it was eventually brought forward. But he knew he was going, and in the 12 months before he left, he installed a bunch of people to very powerful positions. He elevated people to assistant and deputy commissioner levels across the force. Now that's a pretty big no no, because the idea is that you're meant to leave those positions for the next commissioner to shape the force that they want. One of the people that he promoted was Mick Willing. And so Mick Willing is this big figure. He's been groomed for the job according to people who know him. And that he was the only name out of the three candidates, including Karen Webb, that actually went forward on the six person panel as the preferred candidate for the Commissioner of NSW Police. Now, despite the panel's recommendation, the top job has always been a political appointment and the NSW Premier, Dominic Perrottet, who was lobbied very hard to pick Willing, including apparently by the broadcaster Alan Jones in one account that was given to me, Perrottet wanted to go with someone different and he chose Webb. Now, very soon after she was appointed, Webb tears up Mick Willing’s contract. He's a deputy commissioner still, she says she phones him. And, the version of the story I've heard from multiple people that she's phoned him to explain that he would no longer be employed by the force, that she didn't have to give him a reason, but that he's not part of the future. And his email was shut off about half an hour later. So, you know, one of the main rivals of Karen Webb is effectively gone. So she's a surprise pick, and there's some messiness around how she gets into the top job. But almost everyone I spoke to agreed that she's a generational change in the type of leader that NSW Police has had. In terms of her beliefs as a police officer, I think they're very important, given the context that we've had this recent spate of violence, gendered violence against women. And she has from the very first day in the job, but also throughout her career, has made this one of her focuses. She calls it the silent scourge of domestic violence, which now, when she talks to people in her own force around the state, generally makes up about 60% of general duties policing across NSW. So it is the biggest thing they do, and I do believe that she cares about it and that change can happen. How quickly, how much, how soon, we don't know. And almost immediately after finishing writing this story, an officer in NSW was charged with stalking and intimidation offences and illegally accessing information within the NSW Police database. Which just kind of goes to show that there is this ongoing problem and it lives everywhere, including within the force that Karen Webb now leads.

ASHLYNNE:

So Rick, whether the version that we're seeing playing out is sort of the, I guess, a fair representation of the type of police force she wants to be running or not. Put that to one side – there is no doubt that some sections of the community are really unhappy with New South Wales Police. Just how seriously do you think she has to take that? How seriously does New South Wales Police have to take that?

RICK:

I think they have to take it very seriously because, I mean, you see this in examples around the world, but also in various studies and what not, power just exerted for its own sake does not work. And so you can't just have a force that rules by decree, right? You can't have cops just turn up and arrest people or lock them up because someone swore at them. And that's what we see happening all the time. And I think someone like Karen Webb needs to take that very seriously, because we are living in an extraordinary era, I think, where people are not inclined to trust institutions full stop, and certainly not ones with runs on the board when it comes to, systemically or otherwise, violating the rights of the people they are meant to be protecting.

ASHLYNNE:

Thanks for your time, Rick.

RICK:

Thank you, Ash. Appreciate it.

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SCOTT:

Also in the news today…

The federal government is facing criticism for its newly unveiled gas-led transition plan, with some Labor backbenchers raising concern that Australia needs to be moving away from fossil fuels.

Labor’s “future gas strategy” includes initiatives to increase the extraction of gas and promotes controversial carbon capture and storage measures.

And,

The Northern Territory could be getting an AFL team within the next decade, according to a business case published by the AFL and the NT Government.

The report outlines aspirations for a Darwin city stadium, where an NT AFL team would be based.

7am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Cheyne Anderson and Zoltan Fesco.

Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Our host is Ashlynne McGhee. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio. Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Mixing by Andy Elston, Travis Evans and Atticus Bastow.

Our theme music is composed by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

And I’m Scott Mitchell, the editor of 7am. We’ll be back next week with ‘The Cost’: a look at the living crisis as we head into the federal budget.

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