Ali Jan’s family speaks: We want to testify against Australian troops
Nov 20, 2023 •
In September of 2012, Australian soldiers descended on the rural village of Darwan in Afghanistan, killing four men. The events of that day were central to the defamation action brought by Ben Roberts-Smith, where the court found it was substantially true that he had kicked Ali Jan, an Afghan villager, off a cliff and ordered his execution.
Ben Roberts-Smith has appealed that decision and the allegations have never been proven to a criminal standard. Today, Michelle Dimasi on the family of Ali Jan and the justice Australia still owes them.
Ali Jan’s family speaks: We want to testify against Australian troops
1110 • Nov 20, 2023
Ali Jan’s family speaks: We want to testify against Australian troops
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Ok I’ll begin the next recording, can you please tell me your full name and your age.”
MICHELLE:
So I travelled from Kabul to Kandahar. And the south has long been the heartland of the Taliban. It was the frontline of the fighting during the war on terror.
And I met with quite a number of Ali Jan’s family. I met with Dhorko. We sat outside in the court yard and we spoke together.
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Can she tell me her husband’s name? What’s her husband’s name?”
Audio excerpt – Dhorko’s translator:
“His name is Ali Jan.”
MICHELLE:
Dhorko’s very well aware that her husband was kicked off a cliff, she said he was martyred.
[Theme Music Starts]
SCOTT:
From Schwartz Media, I’m Scott Mitchell. This is 7am.
In September of 2012, Australian soldiers descended on the rural village of Darwan in Afghanistan, killing four men.
That raid and the events of that day, were central to the defamation action brought by Ben Roberts-Smith – the court eventually found it was substantially true that he had committed war crimes – including kicking Ali Jan, an Afghan villager, off a cliff and ordering his execution.
But Roberts-Smith has appealed that decision and the allegations have never been proven to a standard that would be required in a criminal trial.
Today, contributor to The Saturday Paper, Michelle Dimasi, on the family of Ali Jan and what Australia owes them.
It’s Monday, November 20.
[Theme Music Ends]
SCOTT:
Michelle, to begin, would you be able to tell us a bit about yourself and how you first came to hear about Ali Jan’s widow Dhorko and their three children?
MICHELLE:
Yeah, sure. So I am a writer, a researcher and an anthropologist. I've been visiting Afghanistan since 2010, so I've been quite engaged with the country for the last 13 years.
In terms of Ali Jan and Dhorko’s case. I first, obviously being an Australian, I came to learn about that like most other Australians knew very well around the defamation trial.
Audio excerpt – Reporter:
“The headline from the biggest defamation case in Australian legal history that 9 newspapers have proved that Ben Roberts Smith is a war criminal.”
Audio excerpt – Reporter:
“Justice Anthony Basanko revealed he was satisfied there was substantial truth to allegations Ben Roberts-Smith was involved in four murders in Afghanistan and bullied an SAS colleague.”
Audio excerpt – Nick McKenzie:
“Today is a day of some small justice for the Afghan victims of Ben Roberts-Smith. Ali Jan, was the man kicked off the cliff. Ali Jan was a father. Ali Jan was a husband. He has children...”
MICHELLE:
So at the time when the verdict was handed down. I was here in the Middle East. I live in Dubai, but I was planning to travel back to Afghanistan. When I was there, I thought this was a good opportunity to start understanding more about what had happened to this family.
SCOTT:
And Michelle, can you tell us a bit about how it is that you came to meet with these women, the widows of these men who’d been killed. What did that journey involve, how did you get in touch with them?
MICHELLE:
Obviously I needed to first get permission from the Taliban. That was actually quite a critical step in this process. So I did approach them and actually asked for permission. Could I look at this as a potential story.
In terms of finding these families have been really well engaged with the country. I have my own networks there and was able to locate them.
We left very early one morning and began the drive from Kandahar to Tarankot, which is the capital Uruzgan, where the Australian soldiers served from 2005 to 2013.
And this drive takes you through all the rural lands of Afghanistan, desolate plains. You know, there's not much to see other than mountains and children shepherding goats. And, you know, the odd Talib on the back of a motorbike with their large woven turbans and flying past and the roads are extremely damaged over the years despite millions of dollars in international aid and reconstruction efforts.
So it's a very poor province. It's very isolated. But it is where I then met Dhorko and another lady called Hazrat Gula. They came to meet me there in Taranko and wanted to share with me their stories about what their lives were and what they wanted to see happen since losing, losing their husbands in Darwan.
SCOTT:
And so when you finally sat down to talk to Ali Jan’s widow, Dhorko, what did she tell you about what exactly happened the day Australian soldiers had this raid on Darwan?
MICHELLE:
Well, as you would recall, and what was revealed through the defamation trial was that allegedly Benjamin Roberts-Smith had kicked Ali Jan off a cliff in Darwan on that day and then had ordered one of his subordinates to execute him.
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Can you tell me were you present? were you at home the day Ali Jan was killed?”
MICHELLE:
For her, she was at home that day when when Ali Jan set out to go mill wheat, he took his donkey. And she later found out that later that evening from a male relative that Ali Jan had been killed.
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Why do you think they killed your husband?”
Audio excerpt – Dhorko with translator:
“For nothing, for nothing… for nothing.”
MICHELLE:
She says that, you know, when she found out, she couldn't understand, you know why someone had killed her husband. He was an innocent man. And that night she was very, very scared. Her kids were very frightened. And she said that her boys and her daughter went to bed that night with hungry stomachs because their father had not come back with food. And he was, you know, the sole provider for that family.
SCOTT:
And what happened to Ali Jan’s family after he was killed? How how have their lives been impacted by what happened to their husbands, their father and this incident involving Australian soldiers?
MICHELLE:
It's very important to remember how many women in rural Afghanistan live. Quite a number of them have never had an education. They don't work, they are at home. And what I'm telling you that is because they rely solely on the male family members to provide them with food safety shelter. So the first thing that's happened to Dhorko is that she's lost the breadwinner of the family.
I also met with Ali Jan's mother, Niazai. She has become quite a frail woman, but every year she makes the journey from Helmand back to Darwan to visit the grave of her son Ali Jan. But she couldn't go in recent months because of getting quite old. And obviously the family’s even struggling to buy things like medicine to provide for any sickness, whether the kids get sick or she's unwell. I also met with Ali Jan’s boys.
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Can you please tell me your name?”
Audio excerpt – Translator:
“ Sediqullah, His name is Sediqullah.”
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“And what is your name?”
Audio excerpt – Translator:
“His name is Ezatullah.”
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“Okay, and how old are you Sediqullah?”
MICHELLE:
So Ali Jan had three kids, Sediqullah and Ezatullah and a little girl Sat Bibi and they have really lost their childhood.
MICHELLE:
When I asked, Sediqullah what had happened to his dad, he said to “my my dad was tied up and he was he was martyred”, meaning he was executed.
Audio excerpt – Michelle Dimasi:
“You must have been quite small at that time.”
< Sediqullah speaks with translator>Audio excerpt – Translator:
“I was really small, I can’t remember”
MICHELLE:
And as I asked him these questions about this, you know, his little brother as a tool, he sat there and was sobbing, you know, his hands in his face, recalling, you know, the pain that these kids still feel. So firstly, they've lost their father. Secondly, they have no opportunity to go to school. They need to find a way to make a living each day. And what does that look like for those boys? They work as child labourers in the cotton fields in Helmand.
And it was very evident that, you know, they have been working really hard in the cotton fields. You know, their faces are very tanned from being out in the sun all day. The hands are very worn from picking the cotton.
After I finished speaking with them, they took me to the cotton fields where they work each day. And I was able to witness how they work relentlessly picking cotton in the fields.
SCOTT:
We’ll be back after this.
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Audio excerpt – Angus Campbell:
“What the inspector general finds is greatly at odds with that good effort and damaging to our moral authority as a military force. His report details credible information regarding deeply disturbing allegations of unlawful killings by some. I would respectfully ask Australians to remember and have faith in the many. I assure you I do. To the people of Afghanistan. On behalf of the Australian Defence Force, I sincerely and unreservedly apologise for any wrongdoing by Australian soldiers.”
SCOTT:
So, Michelle, you’ve just spent time with Ali Jan’s family. And Australia has actually already held an inquiry into cases just like this, alleged killings of Afghan civilians. What did it say about what we should be doing to help people like Dhorko and the surviving family of Ali Jan?
MICHELLE:
Yeah. So we've we're coming up to the three year anniversary of the Brereton report, which found there was credible evidence of 39 unlawful killings of Afghans.
The Brereton Report also noted that it was simply morally the right thing to do, that compensation be paid to these 39 victims' families.
The Brereton report also sets out that compensation shouldn't be postponed, waiting for any further investigations around criminal liability, that this is something that should actually be dealt with independent of any further investigations.
And that is a key recommendation which hasn't been dealt with.
The Department of Defence responded to the Brereton report, stating that there would be a work plan around compensation and this would be settled by the end of 2021. However, today it hasn't been settled. No one has been paid compensation and widows such as Dhorko haven't been spoken to either about what compensation might look like.
SCOTT:
And so why is that? Michelle It's been two years now since that deadline to pay compensation has passed. What's stopping compensation being paid to Ali Jan's widow Durkho, and other families like hers?
MICHELLE:
I think this seems to be a perspective that this is just all too complex. And, you know, let's just put this in the too hard basket, which I think is not necessarily really the case. Yes, the Taliban are the de facto government currently in Afghanistan. And yes, there has been concerns around issues such as, okay, well, if these families were paid out large sums of money, that perhaps there would be corruption or would this money even get to them because of history of corruption in Afghanistan?
What has not really seemed to be discussed, as far as I know, is a number of U.N. agencies are operating in Afghanistan. There's other international organisations such as the Red Crescent. Now those could be approach to look at, okay, how can we get this compensation money to these families? That could be used as a third party, as a conduit in the same way that international aid is coming into Afghanistan and is distributed on other projects. And it could be something as simple as looking at, you know, monthly cash grants for someone like Dhorko so that she has enough food. It could be that, Sediqullah and Ezatullah and Sat Bibi's schooling is paid each month so that those boys don't have to work as child labourers.
And I think these are some of the conversations we have to have right now. It can't be something as simple as it's too complex because the Taliban is there and there's corruption. I don't think that is a good enough reason right now to deny these families compensation that was promised by the Australian Government.
SCOTT:
And so, Michelle, compensation is one thing. But what do Dhorko and the other widows you spoke to want in terms of what does justice look like for them?
MICHELLE:
So let's be clear here. They're not the Dhorko and the other widows are not here just putting their hand up, saying we want handouts from the Australian government. That would be the wrong frame to look at this. What they firstly want is justice. They want the perpetrators brought to a court, whether it's in Afghanistan or it happens in Australia, and they want to see justice. And that's what's most troubling for them. You know, 11 years later, and they're saying, why has justice not been served?
Now these women are ready to testify and it can be done. It can be done. I've spoken to these women and obviously I went to Afghanistan. But there is nothing stopping bringing these women and doing it in a very culturally sensitive way that respects the norms of Afghan society. And they could be testifying by video link should they be given the opportunity to.
Right now, the future of Dhorko and Sediqullah, Ezatullah and Sat Bibi is pretty dire. They can't really see a way forward right now.
Obviously, from a compensation point of view, if they are no longer living in dire poverty, I think that would be a very good outcome for the family. And I think it also just serves as as a reminder that despite everything that's been happening with women in Afghanistan, that we can't be forgetting that the voices of women and the voices of the widows. And I think being able to let these women share their stories actually speaks to a much bigger picture about being able to amplify the voices of women who actually want to testify.
SCOTT:
Michelle, thank you so much for your time and sharing the stories of these women with us.
MICHELLE:
My pleasure, thank you.
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[Theme Music Starts]
SCOTT:
Also in the news today…
Sam Altman, the co-founder and CEO of the company behind ChatGPT, has been fired under mysterious circumstances.
The board of the company, OpenAI, said it no longer had confidence in him and he was not consistently candid in conversations with them.
And…
Over the weekend, delegates from across Africa agreed to create a global reparations fund, to gather and distribute compensation for the global slave trade.
12 million Africans were forcefully taken by European nations between the 16th and 19th century – the fund will be backed by the African Union and pursue negotiated settlements as well as litigation.
I am Scott Mitcheell, this is 7am. Ange McCormack will be back tomorrow.
[Theme Music Ends]
In the spring of 2012, an unarmed Afghan villager, Ali Jan, was allegedly kicked off a cliff by Ben Roberts-Smith, who then purportedly directed another soldier to execute him.
That allegation was central to the landmark defamation action brought by Roberts-Smith, where the court found it to be “substantially true”.
Roberts-Smith has appealed that decision and the allegations have never been proven to a standard that would be required in a criminal trial.
The government has said it plans to compensate the families of victims of alleged Afghanistan war crimes, but 11 years after his murder, Ali Jan’s widow says she’s still awaiting justice.
Today, contributor to The Saturday Paper Michelle Dimasi on what Australia owes the family of Ali Jan.
Guest: Contributor to The Saturday Paper, Michelle Dimasi.
7am is a daily show from The Monthly and The Saturday Paper.
It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Cheyne Anderson and Zoltan Fesco.
Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.
Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio. Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.
Mixing by Andy Elston, Travis Evans, and Atticus Bastow.
Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.
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