Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“Australia is facing an unprecedented challenge from espionage and foreign interference. And I'm not convinced. As a nation, we fully appreciate the damage it inflicts on Australian security, democracy, sovereignty, economy and social fabric. Tonight I will detail the scale and scope of this threat and the outstanding work ASIO and our partners do in countering it. Australia cannot be complacent, we must take security seriously.”

[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

From Schwartz Media I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

Our intelligence community used to believe terrorism was the greatest threat to Australians. But today, our domestic intelligence agency, ASIO, says the biggest danger - is actually from foreign spies.

ASIO’s director-general Mike Burgess is calling the current situation akin ‘hand to hand combat’... and he’s given details of several sensational spy plots, involving ‘highly trained’ sleeper agents trying to recruit assets and steal sensitive secrets.

And, according to him, it’s not just politicians and military officers who are being targeted by spies – it’s everyday people, who might not know they’re giving away information that could cost lives or threaten national security.

Today, chief political correspondent for The Saturday Paper Karen Middleton, on why ASIO is worried about Australians getting caught up in spy games.

It’s Monday, March 6.

[Theme Music Ends]

RUBY:

So Karen, the director general of security at ASIO, Mike Burgess, he recently gave this public speech, his annual threat assessment where he spoke a lot about the threat that foreign spies pose to Australia. And, the act of spying, it isn’t new, we know that’s gone on for decades and decades but the idea that ASIO would actually tell us about it, that they would outline details of spy plots, that is relatively new isn’t it? So why is it that Burgess gave this speech?

KAREN:

Yes, it is interesting that there's been an increasingly open attitude to a point anyway from ASIO to its communications with the public. Back in the day, they used to be highly secretive even about dealing with the media. Those of us who used to have to contact ASIO would ring up a number and get a nameless person on the other end of the phone who you could speak to but couldn't really tell you very much and certainly wouldn't tell you who they were. These days we hear from the director General of Security reasonably often and certainly annually in his threat assessment. I think this was the fourth one that Mike Burgess has delivered.

And since he's been there over the last four years or so, he has really driven this desire to communicate more clearly with the public because I think he believes if the public understands better what ASIO is trying to do, there’ll be a greater deal of trust and credibility.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“Good evening, everyone. Welcome to ASIO and the Ben Chifley Building. Now in my mind you are all VIPs, but there are a few people and groups I need to acknowledge.”

KAREN:

It's interesting that Mike Burgess, in his threat assessment, said that this is the busiest period in the whole history of ASIO.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“Based on what ASIO is seeing, more Australians are being targeted for espionage or foreign interference than at any time in Australia's history. More hostile foreign intelligence services, more spies, more targeting, more harm. More ASIO Investigation's more ASIO disruptions.”

KAREN:

And he listed off all the periods that have been busy. Of course in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, the rise of terrorism or going back further than that the Cold War between Russia and the West.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“I want to dispel any sense that espionage is some romantic Cold War notion. It's not. It's a real and present danger that demands we take security seriously.”

KAREN:

He talked about foreign interference and said this was taking up ASIO’s resources more than ever before.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“And from where I sit, it feels like hand-to-hand combat.”

KAREN:

And went through a number of examples that were designed to make people sit up and take notice about what is going on that we may not know about here in Australia.

RUBY:

And Karen, Burgess actually gave a lot of detail, didn’t he? About how these spies operate in Australia. He warned everyone they could be a target, not just people who might have a security clearance or deal with government secrets?

KAREN:

Yeah, that's right. He said that some of the governments doing these things would even be considered to be friends of Australia, not necessarily just the usual suspects that we might assume could be involved in nefarious activities targeting Australia or Australians.

He did particularly chastise people who have security clearances, who seem to forget that they shouldn't be wandering around the Internet advertising the fact. He talked about how people on social media who've advertised themselves as consultants or trying to get employment have bragged that they've got security clearances. And he said, you might as well say a great potential asset to you. But he pointed out that all kinds of people could be targets. He talked about foreign spies trying to recruit and target public officials, people in business, either directly recruiting people or perhaps more commonly just befriending them and getting information from them even unwittingly. So you don't necessarily need to be formally recruited and on the payroll and officially betraying your country to be of use.

You know, you might be the cleaner in a secure building and somebody makes friends with you and you get to know them. And maybe over a long period of time and you might casually talk about the building and they might ask questions about the layout or something. That kind of information can be important.

So really, the message was one of vigilance without wanting people to be totally paranoid about every interaction they have in their everyday life, to be aware that there can be people targeting them for information that they don't realise can be absolutely vital or crucial or valuable to a foreign power.

RUBY:

And there was one group of people in particular that Mike Burgess mentioned.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“There's been a discernable uptick in the targeting of the media industry online and in person. The watches are being watched. The reporters are being reported on and the press is being pressed.”

RUBY:

He said journalists have increasingly become targets for spies.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“We have seen journalists, producers and commentators targeted by spies in person with the spies seeking to influence reporting, discover sources and obtained privileged information.”

RUBY:

As a journalist who works in national security and politics - have you encountered this kind of thing? And how serious do you think the risk is to you and your work?

KAREN:

Yeah, absolutely. Being a journalist in the press gallery, you're always getting invitations to foreign embassies. You're meeting foreign diplomats. Sometimes they want to meet you for coffee and have a chat. And I think it's really important to always be aware that they are not only wanting to tell you things, they’re wanting to find out things from you. Sometimes it seems innocuous, it might just be, what's your assessment of the political scene in Australia? And I think the smart thing to do in that case is to say no more than you might say publicly anywhere else.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“ASIO uncovered a plot to exploit and potentially recruit senior Australian journalists. We stopped this plot before it was executed.”

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“The Foreign Intelligence Service used a person I'll call the lackey to do its dirty work.”

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“The Lackey drew up a list of influential journalists and planned to offer them all expenses paid study tours of a foreign country where the spymasters would enjoy home ground advantage.”

KAREN:

It’s interesting that Mike Burgess spoke about the fact that some people could be encouraged to take study tours to other countries, unwittingly thinking they're just going along to learn about either cultural exchange or to get access to political figures when in fact they were being targeted. Once they were there, not only their devices were being targeted in terms of a cyber attack but they personally were being questioned by intelligence agents in a manner that they might not even notice.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“Almost certainly the journalists' phones, laptops and tablets would have also been targeted. If left unattended, even in a locked hotel safe. The spies would have downloaded data and potentially installed malware, giving them ongoing access to contacts, stories, emails and calls.”

KAREN:

So you've always got to be aware that you could be potentially exploited in that regard.

I remember years ago just going on prime ministerial trips to various countries where we had to be careful about minding our own devices, particularly in China. Many years ago, at one stage we media representatives that were following a prime minister in China were accommodated in a five star hotel. And we found ourselves all being put into rooms one above the other. Usually you'd be accommodated all on the same floor. But in this case it was, you know, 101, 201, 301, 401, 501. And we sort of joked about it and said, I wonder if they're just cabling down the side of the building so they can bug us all in the easiest manner.

And we sort of joked about that at the time. But it is a real threat, so you really do have to be careful when you're travelling as a journalist or as a business figure to make sure that you're aware of the risks.

RUBY:

We’ll be back in a moment.

[Advertisement]

Archival tape -- David Koch:

“The country's top spy boss has given a bombshell speech revealing ASIO has broken up a hive of spies.”

Archival tape -- Reporter:

“Who were recruiting agents to steal sensitive information.”

Archival tape -- Sky News Reporter:

“And ASIO’s Mike Burgess said the other day? That there were a hive of spies? Operation in Australia and they had to be kicked out?”

RUBY:

Karen, we’ve spoken a bit about the ways that ASIO has said that journalists are being targeted by foreign spies, and that seems to mostly be centered around when journalists go overseas tours. But there was also this other spy plot he spoke about - and that seemed to have been poised to take place within Australia, involving sleeper spies from a foreign government on Australian soil. So can you tell me about it?

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“I'd like to highlight one particular and significant successful ASIO operation.”

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“I refer to this latest case as the hive of spies because it was bigger and more dangerous than the nest.”

KAREN:

Yeah, it was an interesting choice of language. He acknowledged that in the past he's talked about a nest of spies. And this time he used the phrase a hive of spies.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“Some were put in place years earlier. Proxies and agents were recruited as part of a wider network and among other malicious activities. They wanted to steal sensitive information.”

KAREN:

He said that some of those people had been in Australia for some time, had effectively been sleepers, undeclared spies attached to a foreign regime that he didn't name, but that were here in Australia. So lying low for a long time.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“It's obvious to us that the spies were highly trained because they use sophisticated tradecraft to disguise their activities.”

KAREN:

He didn't want to give too much away about what exactly they were up to, but he said that it was a serious threat to Australia, that ASIO identified it and tracked their activities, eventually stepped in and had those people removed.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“We watched them. We mapped their activities. We mounted an intense and sustained campaign of operational activity. We confronted them and working with our partners, we removed them from this country privately and professionally.”

KAREN:

So I think he made the point that, you know, they were good, but ASIO was better.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“The hive is history.”

KAREN:

In the case of the hive of spies, well he didn't want to say which country was involved and he was encouraging people not to speculate. But there have been a series of newspaper articles now suggesting that they were Russian.

RUBY:

Right, and Karen there is another part of Burgess’s speech that I wanted to ask you about - and it involves the terrorism threat assessment.

So late last year when two police officers and a man were killed at Wieambilla.

Archival tape -- Reporter:

“Good evening as hearts break for two young police officers and an innocent neighbour murdered in cold blood in an ambush and shootout in Queensland, disturbing details are emerging about the armed trio who killed them.”

RUBY:

It came out that the people responsible had been posting videos mentioning right wing conspiracies. It was determined they were religiously motivated and it was a terrorist attack.

And this happened just after ASIO had actually lowered the terrorism threat down from probable to possible.

What does this new focus tell us about ASIO’s priorities and I guess, is there any indication that Mike Burgess will be re-examining the threat of far right terrorism?

KAREN: He talked about that case specifically. He said that the threat remains at possible.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“For now, though, the level remains at possible. And that's despite the slaying of two police officers and a civilian at Wieambilla.”

KAREN:

He said he was reluctant to go into too much detail because, of course, this case is still a subject of investigation. But he did specifically say, you know, it's important to understand that they weren't embracing a racist or nationalist ideology. They were driven by a religious motive.

Archival tape -- Mike Burgess:

“We believe the shooting was an act of politically motivated violence, primarily motivated by Christian violent extremist ideology. Now, given this matter is still being investigated. I’ll refrain from going into more detail about ASIO's assessment other than to say we did not find evidence that the killer's embraced a racist and nationalist ideology or were sovereign citizens despite the anti-authority and conspiracy beliefs.”

KAREN:

He was quite critical of the nature of commentary that tried to sort of put people in a particular box, whether it's left wing or right wing or some other kind of label. He said that disentangling all of these motives and organised networks is a lot of work and it's not quite as simple as that and that there's a danger in trying to just label groups as left wing or right wing that it's a lot more complicated. And he said that that can risk getting this sort of diagnosis wrong in terms of what the motivations were and how to address them. He was telling people to be wary when they automatically reached for a standard label to identify the nature of a particular threat.

RUBY:

Right. And this is quite a different message isn’t it, from what we’ve heard from ASIO in the past — in his 2020 address Burgess spoke about the threat of terrorism he said the number of terrorism leads ASIO was investigating had doubled …. And that the agency was particularly focused on ‘Violent Islamic terrorism’. So, Karen, what does it tell us about how much things have changed, that ASIO now sees the biggest threat as spies and what is, really, information warfare?

KAREN:

Well, in recent years, the threat has been a physical threat. It's a threat of bombs going off in the middle of our cities and people being in physical danger. And now what the director general is saying is really the threat is about information, about foreign governments trying to influence and interfere with our political system.

I think it’s partly to do with the geostrategic circumstances. We know that the world is in an uncertain period. You look across Europe, we've got a war raging, a major power has invaded another country. What does it mean for the safety and security of everybody's borders? And then here in the Asia-Pacific region, the question about China and China's rising influence, what its intentions are and certainly our country and other countries around the region are reassessing their own strategic posture in relation to those threats.

So what the director general is saying is that it's a very sophisticated threat. It's as serious as ever and that Australians should understand the nature of it and really guard themselves against it because it is as dangerous as anything that can happen through the barrel of a gun.

RUBY:

Karen, thank you so much for your time.

KAREN:

Thanks Ruby.

[Advertisement]

[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

Also in the news today,

Former US President Donald Trump has continued his campaign to once again be the Republican candidate for president in 2024, by warning that if he’s not elected then there will be another world war.

In a rambling speech at the conservative CPAC conference, Trump said, quote: “I am the only candidate who can make this promise: I will prevent World War Three.”

And…

Chris Minns has officially launched Labor’s campaign for the NSW election.

At the launch over the weekend, Minns announced that to create more pathways for training for young people, a Labor government would hire an extra 1,000 apprentices and trainees through public utility companies.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. See you tomorrow.

[Theme Music Ends]