DANIEL VANSETTEN:

My name is Daniel Vansetten. I spent 12 years, almost 12 years, in prison.

It's like Groundhog Day. Generally speaking, you would get a wake up call at about 7:30 to stand outside your cell. And then you might start work at about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, if you're working in the prison. You'd be returned back to the unit at about lunchtime for lunch. You may return back to your workplace about 1 o'clock to about 3:30 in the afternoon, and then you'd be sent back to your unit or your cell. And depending on what prison you're in, you could have lockdown as early as 3:30 to o'clock. Or if you're in a more privileged prison, lockdown might be at 8 o'clock that night.

One of the issues in prison is the chronic boredom and lack of meaningful activities to do in prison and that has a detrimental effect to rehabilitation.

DANIEL JAMES:

Part of the period that Daniel was locked away for was during COVID.

That amplified the feeling of boredom but not only that, it was next to impossible to find out information about what was happening across the prison system.

Prisoners were locked down for weeks with limited access to news.

DANIEL VANSETTEN:

You know, the level of uncertainty was just unbelievable. Some people thought that we were gonna get out of prison early because of it and some people thought that we might die in prison because of the COVID. And there was a period of time where we were even struggling to get food.
The prison authorities generally like to keep information close to themselves about issues that might affect the administration of the prison. So there was, yeah, really no information given to us.

DANIEL JAMES:

That lack of information also spread to other aspects of the prison system, really important aspects to do with getting released.

DANIEL VANSETTEN:

Another thing that was cut off was rehabilitation courses. And these courses are significant because you won't get parole unless the rehabilitation course is completed and these courses go for around six months each course. The whole course system was shut down. Another significant issue, actually, which affected me was, I was due to see the parole board. And the South Australian Parole Board closed and we had no information about how long that would be for, when it would reopen, what the plan was to deal with that. So, that actually delayed my parole, in the end, by two years.

DANIEL JAMES:

Daniel is now out. He was released in 2022. But when he heard about the idea of a national newspaper for prisoners, by prisoners, he jumped at the opportunity to be involved.

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DANIEL JAMES:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James. This is 7am.

The incarceration system in Australia can be an information black hole. About Time is a national paper trying to rectify that.

The free paper is available to approximately 21,000 prisoners in Tasmania, Victoria, New South Wales and the ACT.

It’s tailored to prison life and hopes to get information in and out of prisons and create a community among incarcerated people.

Today, contributor to About Time Daniel Vansetten and the paper’s managing director Rosie Heselev, on giving prisoners a voice and the empathy they hope comes from it.

It's Friday, September 13.

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DANIEL JAMES:

Rosie, can we start off by getting you to introduce yourself, who you are and what you do?

ROSIE:

Thank you. My name is Rosie Heselev, and I'm the managing director at About Time.

DANIEL JAMES:

Rosie, can you take us to the moment when the idea to start a newspaper about prisons, and prisoners, came to you?

ROSIE:

Yeah, it started around 2021. I was working as a human rights administrative law lawyer in community law at Fitzroy Legal Service and we ran an advice line for people in prison. And I was speaking to people inside nearly every day and I was sensing a real frustration on the lack of information people were getting and the lack of ability to express themselves as well. So people in prison are very fragmented, isolated from issues that really affect them. And around this time, I received an email from our now co-founder Joe Freedman, who said, “hey, I just listened to a podcast about a newspaper based in the UK called Inside Time, and it's a prison based newspaper, it's been around since the 90s. Is there something like that in Australia?” And I said, “no, not to my knowledge, but we really need one”. So that's why we wanted to create a newspaper. There is also an element of the paper which is a platform for people to write and to hear about other people and how they have processed through prison and outside into the community, and really gain a sense of hope that this is just a moment in time and imprisonment is not forever.

Ultimately, you know, we want this paper to be fully autonomous and run by people who have lived experience of imprisonment, so that people can have a sense of dignity and control over their lives, and to provide a platform where you can express yourself, your stories, but listen to other people's stories. That is what we want to do.

DANIEL JAMES:

So how long did it take from the inception of the idea to actually getting it up and happening?

ROSIE:

So we started in 2021, and it took a long time and a lot of work to get to the launch of the paper in July this year. And a big hurdle that we've had is to get approval from corrections departments to get the paper inside. And we finally at a point where, you know, we have Victoria, New South Wales, Tasmania, ACT and coming on from next edition and the edition following will be South Australia and Queensland. So I think it's just a lesson if you want to do something, you have time and resources, don't give up.

DANIEL JAMES:

Can you take us back to the time when the first edition was about to be printed and published? What was it like the day of the publishing of that first edition?

ROSIE:

It was a very exciting day. We hadn't slept for a few days, just anticipating a response. I think the thing with this paper is our main audience is people in prison, so it's very hard to know initially what the response is. But after a few days getting messages on, you know, emails and Facebook from family members saying, we've been really dying to hit and get something like this and thank you. I think that was... that was the most important thing for us.

DANIEL JAMES:

Have you gotten any specific feedback about the impact About Time has had?

ROSIE:

Yeah. If you'll indulge me, I would like to read a section from a letter we received. And this is from Joe, who wrote from Metropolitan Remand Centre in Victoria. And he says, “I write to extend feedback about your monthly paper. I must say it was with more than the usual measuring spoon of interest that most here at MRC welcomed its arrival. Upon finding it in our respective mailboxes, it caused a stir, a tad like the discovery of gold in Ballarat. A buzz. Some leafed the pages, quietly absorbed, some flock together applauding the contents. A small, tidy group of indigenous fellas, loudly and proudly celebrating the inclusion of the artwork of a dear friend of mine, Chris. In short, conversation thrived. The overall reaction across the board favourable. At age 54, I was a first timer to prison. An enormity of life experience has meant I'm able to assist peers here in various ways. Principally, though, I guide their journey to accept that they are more. Much more than their crime or transgression. The will to change begins with the humblest of realisations, like dropping certain habits. Hence, I summarise that moving away from healthy habits prompts a kind of reboot, a reset, to those originally God givted settings we were born with prior to nibbling or gorging the poisoned apple. To wrap it up, your monthly publication offers us not only hope and solidarity, but a sense of dignity, and that is something that some have never experienced.”

Hearing that and knowing that some dignity is being given, like that is... we know we're doing the right thing.

DANIEL JAMES:

After the break, how two-way empathy is the goal of About Time.

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DANIEL JAMES:

Rosie, you said that when you first discussed the idea of About Time when there was nothing else like it in Australia from a national perspective. But there were prison newspapers in isolation before that. What were those newspapers like and how did they inform your process in establishing About Time?

ROSIE:

Yeah, absolutely. The national element of our paper is unique, but prison newsletters and prison media is definitely not. There is an article about the history of prison newspapers in the current edition of About Time, written by Damien Lenane who's doing his PhD on this topic, actually, and he has found 80 different newsletters, over 900 editions, with the earliest one he found from 1912. So we're definitely not the first and there are other publications available at the moment, like Paper Trained, which is actually edited by Damien Lenane. It's an art journal. So the idea is not novel. It's about being informed by what's gone before us and creating something that is a bit unique, which is getting a national sense, because the national element is really important to us to provide a cohesion, a solidarity against the real, fragmented nature of prisons.

DANIEL JAMES:

About Time is as much about prisoner reform, prisoner welfare, but there's also an aspect to it, if you were to read it as a member of the general public, the actual quality of what is being written is very high. What's the process to get that type of quality of content in the paper?

ROSIE:

The submissions we're receiving are of high quality, and it's just to show that people in prison are very talented and have a really strong voice. Also, we've gotten volunteer journalists that are very invested and interested in criminal justice reform and are committed to this project. We've gotten psychologists and therapists that are writing real quality advice and information for people. So it's a real community effort. But for readers in the public, it's a great read.

If society views people in prison as people, then the response can create change, can be really generative, you know, policy change that can flow from that and prospects of reintegration into the community, different types of investments. This is all what we foresee that can happen once we humanise a criminalised population. And it's about creating a society that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity, respect and human rights.

DANIEL JAMES:

Rosie, thank you for your time.

ROSIE:

Thank you very much for having me.

DANIEL JAMES:

So Daniel, tell me about your experience writing for About Time. What did you write about?

DANIEL VANSETTEN:

I actually shared just a personal experience, in about 800 words, of my journey through prison, how I went through to be interested in law and then make the transition to study law on the outside.

I enjoy sharing my experience and I hope that by producing articles for the paper, it inspires people to get involved as well. People can share hardships or share how they've overcome hardships in prison, and I think it's important that people in prison, you know, maintain that sense of community, definitely because they're going to be released one day. And there's also an issue with, I guess, self-esteem and self-worth in prison. So if you are able to get a piece published in a newspaper, it brings about a sense of self-worth and pride to see your piece published in the paper.

A unique thing about this paper is that it's available to the community; the paper’s published online. And I think this is really important to help reduce the stigmatisation that is often caused by mainstream media who, when they speak about people in prison, they’re generally speaking about the crime they committed or the offence they committed, and we don't hear about the positive things that people do in prison. So having this paper available to the community will help, I guess, reduce the fear and stigmatisation, allow people to see some of the positive things that people are doing in prison to rehabilitate themselves and to give these people more of a humanistic character, I guess, which will help the process of reintegration when people are released into the community.

DANIEL JAMES:

Daniel, thank you for your time

DANIEL VANSETTEN:

Thank you, Daniel.

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DANIEL JAMES:

Also in the news today…

Up to nine Australian commanders who served in the Afghan war have been stripped of their awards, finalising the government's response to the Brereton inquiry into alleged war crimes.

Defence Minister Richard Marles has sent letters to the relevant senior soldiers informing them of his decision, but he has not revealed how many have been affected or their identities.

And,

The UN Palestinian Refugee Agency, UNRWA, says six of its staff have been killed in two airstrikes on a school in Gaza, marking what it says is the highest death toll amongst its staff in a single incident.

​​The Gaza government media office says the Israeli strike killed at least 12 others.

7am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Cheyne Anderson, Zoltan Fecso, and Zaya Altangerel.

Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

We’re edited by Chris Dengate and Sarah McVeigh.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Our mixer is Travis Evans.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

7am is hosted by Ruby Jones and myself, Daniel James.

See you next week.

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