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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

Touching negative gearing has been unthinkable for the Labor Party, but this week the government was forced to talk about ending the scheme that benefits property investors.

It was pushed onto the agenda by the Greens and Max Chandler-Mather, who are demanding that Anthony Albanese address it, if he wants to pass Labor’s new housing policy.

So, could the Greens force Labor to address negative gearing?

Today, columnist for The Saturday Paper, Paul Bongiorno, on the future of housing and why unproductive Question Time debates in Parliament might have to change.

It’s Friday, February 16.

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ANGE:

Paul. There's lots of really personal, contentious fights going on in politics this week, and we've barely even started the political year. As someone who's in Parliament House watching this every day, what's the atmosphere like?

PAUL:

Well Ange, we are getting to the business end of this term. This could well end up being an election year, as Peter Dutton warned his party room on Tuesday. They should get ready.

And then we have the Dunkley by-election in Victoria in just two weeks time. Labor's bracing for a midterm protest vote here. And the Coalition and Peter Dutton, well, they're desperate for one. So there could be a boil over. No wonder tensions are running a bit high.

So if I can put it this way, the big kids are playing for keeps. And this inevitably leads to a ratcheting up of intensity. As everyone sees, scoring big political points is the most urgent thing to do in the circumstances.

And of course, this is obviously on show in Question Time. The original purpose of this daily 90 minutes, when the house sits well, it's to hold the government to account and to seek more light on the burning issues of the day. But in our contested democracy, well, debates are expected, differences are highlighted, and arguments can be pursued with vigour.

So it's not surprising Question Time is a battlefield, but it's more often than not a forum for either self-congratulation and backslapping or schoolyard taunting.

Audio excerpt – Unidentified Labor member:

“And that's why over the last few weeks, the opposition have been behaving like some kind of beginner's Bikram yoga class, all hot and sweaty and desperately trying to contort themselves into a position that we really know they don't want to be in.”

PAUL:

But, you know, members on our enlarged crossbench of independents, well, they're getting fed up. I spoke to Sydney independent Zali Steggall. She's the original teal, and she says Question Time isn't serving its purpose.

Audio excerpt – Zali Steggall:

“I’d invite members to read the standing orders…”

PAUL:

And she adds, now that Labor's in a majority in the House, it's reverted to some of the behaviour it used to criticise the Coalition government for, and, when Tony Burke was the newly minted leader of the House, he promised it would change.

Audio excerpt – Zali Steggall:

“It is clear that it's intended that inferences and imputations should not be included in question…”

PAUL:

And after a particularly frustrating Question Time on Tuesday, as she trudged back to her office, I walked past her and she lamented, “that was an hour and a half I'll never get back”.

She was frustrated with virtually every government question, which saw ministers go on ad-nauseum about the benefits of rejigging the stage three tax cuts.

Audio excerpt – Labor MP 1:

“Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. And can I thank the terrific member for Higgins, for her question. That last week I told the House about what the tax cuts mean for teachers…”

Audio excerpt – Tony Zappoa:

“There are 78,000 taxpayers in the electorate of Makin, Mr. Speaker, and on July 1st, Labor will deliver every single one of them a tax cut.”

Audio excerpt – Anthony Albanese:

“Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the member from Macquarie for her question. And she knows that on the 1st of July, as a result of Labor's cost of living tax cuts, every Australian taxpayer will get a tax cut.”

PAUL:

While every opposition question was playing gotcha with the Immigration Minister, Andrew Giles, over the 149, quote, hard core criminals the High Court ordered out of indefinite detention.

Audio excerpt – Peter Dutton:

“Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My questions to the Minister for Immigration…”

Audio excerpt – Coalition MP 2:

“Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Immigration…”

Audio excerpt – Coalition MP 3:

“Thanks, speaker. My question is to the Minister for immigration…”

Audio excerpt – Peter Dutton:

“The Albanese government's released 149 hardcore criminals…”

Audio excerpt – Coalition MP 2:

“The Albanese government has released 149 criminals…”

Audio excerpt – Coalition MP 3:

“On 30th November. In between releasing criminals, the Minister told the house…”

PAUL:

Another teal MP, Allegra Spender, she joined the criticism. She said Question Time is a waste of time and it often doesn't lead to questions being answered. So what's the point? These criticisms have led Steggall, Spender and other crossbenchers to write to the speaker of the House, Milton Dick man, the leader of the House, Tony Burke, to change our Question Time works, well to make it more productive.

But it wasn't only critical of the major parties, she thought the Greens MP, Max Chandler Mather, failed to get the balance right between point scoring and genuine concerns over how the government is dealing with the housing and rental crisis. This led to a flare up between Chandler Mather and the Prime Minister in Question Time.

ANGE:

Right. And the tension between Anthony Albanese and Max Chandler Mather has been brewing for some time. What happened between them this week that brought that old rivalry up again?

PAUL:

Well Ange, the listing of the government's Help to Buy scheme for debate in the Parliament this week gave the Greens an opportunity to press their demand for significant changes to negative gearing and the capital gains discount in return for their support of the equity scheme.

Audio excerpt – Max Chandler Mather:

“Question to the Prime Minister. Labor's refusal to phase out billions of dollars in property investor tax concessions to property investors like yourself is denying millions of renters the chance to buy a home…”

PAUL:

Max Chandler Mather asked the Prime Minister why his government supports tax concessions like negative gearing which benefits property investors like Mr Albanese himself.

Audio excerpt – Max Chandler Mather:

“Can you explain to the House why Labour supports big tax cuts for property investors, like negative gearing that are hurting renters and first home buyers…”

PAUL:

Well, the speaker didn't like the way the question flouted the strict rules about ascribing improper motives to ministers and other members.

Audio excerpt – The Speaker (House of Reps):

“I remind members about improper motives and questions as well. Just…that was pretty close to the wind. The prime minister has the call.”

PAUL:

But he did get away with it. Of course, the Greens MP knew what he was doing. As Zali Steggall says, the more colourful the question, the more likely it will grab attention on social and even in mainstream media. But Albanese lobbed one back at Chandler Mather.

Audio excerpt – Anthony Albanese:

“The idea that there will be a discussion with that sort of juvenile approach that we've seen from those opposite, will not occur. Because this is not a students council. This is a Parliament.”

PAUL:

Now, Help to Buy involves shared equity home loans given to eligible buyers, with a deposit as low as 2%, the government acts as an equity partner, funding and owning 30 to 40% of the property rents not required on the government share. Nor is mortgage insurance needed.

Labor says the scheme will help thousands. It nominates 40,000 households, in fact, to get into their first home.

But the Greens say it's more of a lottery and doesn't deal with the major contributors to the housing crisis, namely the tax treatment of property investment with multi-billion dollar concessions skewed, the Greens say, to wealthier Australians, and in that they have the support of Treasury figures.

Certainly negative gearing or capital gains tax reforms are not on the table at this time.

ANGE:

And we've heard Anthony Albanese call Max Chandler Mather juvenile before, and he genuinely seems to frustrate the Prime Minister at times. Why is it that Max Chandler Mather really gets under Albanese's skin?

PAUL:

I think in the first instance, Chandler Mather is an assiduous campaigner, but based on an article he wrote some time ago about how social change is achieved. Albanese believes Chandler Mather is more of a soft revolutionary, a Trotskyite who is reluctant to ever compromise because the fight creates more attention to the cause. And you can win the cause on another day.

But Labor knows the Greens, like everybody else in the run up to an election sometime soon. Well, they're out for product differentiation.

But, you know, I think what particularly rankles here, Ange, is the sort of reforms the Greens are calling for. Well, the Prime Minister and the ministers know they have wide support among the Labor base. The only thing stopping anything happening is pragmatic electoral politics. This certainly constrains Albanese.

You might remember the promise of negative gearing reforms helped cost Bill Shorten the 2019 election. Shorten said last week he went for negative gearing and what did we get? Scott Morrison.

ANGE:

After the break - will the Greens force Labor to reform negative gearing?

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ANGE:

Paul, we're talking about the tension between Labor and the Greens over the government's Help to Buy scheme. Putting aside the shot that Max Chandler Mather made at Albanese during his question in Question Time. What he wanted to do was put changes to negative gearing on the agenda, I suppose. How much power does the Greens have here in forcing the government to think about that?

PAUL:

Well, Labor does need the Greens support in the Senate to get the shared equity scheme through, the Coalition stringently against it. They think it's some sort of soft socialism, even though the former New South Wales Coalition government actually introduced a similar scheme. The federal scheme is modelled on it.

Well, the Greens are using that as leverage and calling on Labor to change the negative gearing rules and restrict negative gearing to one property. That's a risky strategy from the Greens. Albanese isn't going there, he says. Negative gearing isn't on the agenda.

The Prime Minister basically dares the Greens not to support the help to buy scheme if they vote with the coalition against this policy. Labor can then say it'll mean that they're standing in the way of a policy that will help renters buy a home.

But it's true, as you say, this argument does put negative gearing reform on the agenda. And the opposition has noted the Prime Minister and Treasurer have been, to quote Angus Taylor, wishy-washy in ruling it out.

But senior government people tell me it won't be happening this term. And I get the impression any serious tax changes could well be taken to the people at the next election.

ANGE:

We have seen this kind of thing before, from Labor and the Greens. Standoffs on the Housing Australia Future Fund and the safeguard mechanism ended with the agreements last year. Are we seeing a pattern here with the Greens and Labor in this Parliament? A lot of angry talk before eventually cutting a deal with each other.

PAUL:

Well, I'm assured by Labor people that Albanese is drawing a line in the sand on this. The scheme, while significant, is only part of a raft of measures the government is pursuing on housing.

And last year, when the Greens held out on the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund with its promise to build thousands of new houses over the decade. Well, the government was desperate to get it through and after some pretty tough negotiations, the Greens won some concessions.

Now on this. While it's helpful, it's not as pivotal to the government's agenda in addressing the housing crisis.

ANGE:

And finally, Paul, to come back to what Zali Steggall and Allegra Spender were getting at. As you look at the debate over housing, will the way both parties ever approach this actually be good for outcomes? Will we see better policy for people trying to buy their first home by the end of this debate?

PAUL:

Well, I'm inclined to think, based on the way in which Chandler Mather, for example, on The Project this week said that he wasn't ruling out ever supporting the equity scheme. He's up for negotiations.

I think that Albanese is right in saying that the Greens are, in fact, grandstanding on this precisely to put negative gearing reform on the agenda and precisely to say, look at us, look what we're going for, you know, to appeal to voters who realise that these multi-billion dollar tax concessions definitely need to be looked at and reformed.

I think the clue comes from something that Max Chandler-Mather has been saying.

Pressure works, he says Labor changed their position on stage three tax cuts, and now they need to change their position on negative gearing and capital gains tax. I think Labor realises this. I think it's a matter of when it happens and how it happens. So from that point of view, maybe eventually we'll get some more sensible policy on housing. We certainly need it.

ANGE:

Paul, thanks so much for your time today.

PAUL:

Thank you, Ange. Bye.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today,

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has signed a letter along with the Prime Ministers of Canada and New Zealand, urging Israel not to launch a ground invasion on the Gazan city of Rafah and to call for an immediate ceasefire.

In the statement, the leaders said: “There is simply nowhere else for civilians to go” and cited the recent ruling of the International Court of Justice that Israel must abide by international law to protect civilians and allow humanitarian aid.

And

A new poll has found that almost 1 in 5 Americans believe in the conspiracy theory that pop star Taylor Swift is being used to influence the US Presidential election.

The poll, conducted by a New Jersey college, found 18% of Americans believed the baseless theory and 46% were aware of the claims.

7am is a daily show from The Monthly and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Zoltan Fecso and Cheyne Anderson.

Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Mixing by Andy Elston, Travis Evans, and Atticus Bastow.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. We’ll be back again next week.

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