[Theme Music Starts]

RUBY:

From Schwartz Media I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

As the world gathers at COP27 to decide on the next steps in our response to the climate crisis, the biggest point of contention is one idea: climate justice.

It’s an idea that could force the richest nations, like Australia, to pay for the damages and loss that climate catastrophe is causing in poorer countries.

But could it really happen? Is it viable? And would Australia ever sign up to the idea of climate reparations?

Today, national correspondent for The Saturday Paper, Mike Seccombe on how the countries facing devastation from our emissions are demanding justice.

It’s Tuesday, November 15.

RUBY:

So Mike COP27, is happening right now and leaders from all over the world are gathering, but it's taking place under a bit of a shadow, isn't it? Because just a few days before the conference, word came down that the world, in all likelihood, is not going to avoid warming of 1.5 degrees. So how is that news being taken and how are world leaders who are at this conference reacting?

Mike:

Well, as you say, just just before the COP, the UN revealed that it was unlikely we would stay below 1.5 degrees of warming. And that's significant, I guess, because when they gathered for the last COP, you know, the goal was to try and prevent more than 1.5 degrees of warming and to announce stronger commitments to reach their Paris target. Part of the problem, I guess, this time is that world leaders, particularly from, you know, wealthy countries, have had a lot on their mind, you know, worldwide galloping inflation, the Ukraine war, foremost among them. And of course, a consequence of both of those things, an energy price shock that, you know, caused by the war and increased by the increasing inflation, which means, I guess, that even those leaders who are relatively progressive in their approach to climate, you know, like Joe Biden and Rishi Sunak, the new British PM, have been talking about increasing domestic gas supplies to try and bring prices down, which, you know, a lot of people see as a negative thing. Actually, I don't think it is all doom and gloom, to be honest. I think ultimately this will speed the pace of renewable energy because, you know, when fossil fuels become more expensive, they become relatively less competitive. But this COP was supposed to be where countries announced they had lifted their ambitions and not many have.

RUBY:

Right. Okay. So despite the warning from the UN and despite what we know about what happens at 1.5 degrees, which is significant, we're talking about things like drought and famine and the potential for 100 million people to be thrown into poverty as land becomes uninhabitable. World leaders are coming into COP27 without putting ambitious climate policy front and centre. So what does that mean then Mike for where we're heading and where should we look when we're trying to find ways to avert climate disaster?

Mike:

Well, you know, the way to avert climate disaster is to speed the pace of decarbonisation. You know, just stop using fossil fuels. I mean, the essential message is pretty clear. You know, the details get very complicated, obviously, and that will involve massive investment. But actually, the hottest point of contention at this COP is not so much how we avert disaster, but how we compensate people for disasters, which are increasingly inevitable because we haven't succeeded in mitigating climate change. So, you know, the argument really is about the fact that it is basically the rich industrialised world that has caused the problem of climate change by emitting enormous amounts of greenhouse gases over the past century or so. But it is the developing world which is suffering, you know, proportionately greater consequences. And a lot of delegates have come from around the world, from civil society groups, from developing nations, intent on trying to get some kind of climate justice along these lines. I spoke to one of them, Shiva Gounden.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"Yeah. I can hear you."

Mike:

Who's with Greenpeace and is their Pacific delegate and was in Egypt for the COP. And we had a long talk.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"We've been getting one to two hours sleep maximum per day."

Mike:

And Shiva can claim a rare, dispiriting double.

In March 2015. He was a humanitarian worker and he was in Vanuatu where he was cleaning up after Cyclone Pam. Now, Cyclone Pam was at that point the most powerful cyclone ever in the southern hemisphere. And so he was there cleaning up the dreadful disaster that left behind there.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"Especially in terms of rebuilding and especially in terms of getting groups together to get the agency back in the community."

Mike:

Less than a year later, in February the following year, he was back in the country of his birth, Fiji, in the wake of Cyclone Winston, which was even stronger and more damaging than Cyclone Pam.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"That was devastation that I've never seen before in all of my times doing post-disaster work."

Mike:

So, you know, The island's infrastructure wrecked by winds that went over 300 kilometres, gusted over 300 kilometres an hour.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"And you would see all power lines broken."

Mike:

Seven metre storm surges.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"Trees completely uprooted."

Mike:

Tens of thousands of homes destroyed.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"So much loss of life that Fiji has never seen before."

Mike:

But when I when I spoke to Shiva, the thing that he remembered with particular sadness was the intangible losses he said, like burial grounds that had been washed away.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"This is not something you can build a seawall against. You can't change crop structures for. This is things that will stay with people and the and the psyche and the mental health, etc. for life."

Mike:

Where the remains of family members. You know, these are cultural monuments, valued and cherished, wiped away by climate change.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"You can't get back that cultural connection to the ancestral land. You can't get back if you have, you have to relocate and move from that place to somewhere else and you lose that culture language of the community."

Mike:

So like many of the campaigners, I guess at COP, he's there to talk about something which used to be considered quite radical. And that is climate justice.

RUBY:

Okay. So what is meant by that, Mike? What is the idea of climate justice?

Mike:

Well, essentially, the idea that's being pushed is reparations for the richest countries that are responsible for most of the emissions to pay the poorer countries who are facing some of the worst damage from the climate crisis.

RUBY:

Right. So countries like Australia compensating other places?

Mike:

Well, yes. Well, you know, there's argument, of course, whether you call it compensation or whether you call it restitution or whether you call it damages. But, yes, that's what the suggestion is, because the 23 richest industrialised nations, including Australia, are responsible for half of all historical emissions of the main greenhouse gas, you know, carbon dioxide.

So it's the burning of fossil fuels that is the foundation of the wealth of the rich countries. But it's come at huge environmental and economic cost. And that cost is disproportionately borne by countries that have not seen the same benefits. So the idea that there has to be some mechanism to help poorer countries pay for the damage and the loss, as well as to prepare themselves for future damage, is dominating this conference or has dominated this conference to this point. The idea that rich countries should compensate poor countries is not a new one. The Pacific has been talking about it for over 30 years, but this time after long negotiations, which delayed the start of the COP because there was resistance on the part of some of the rich nations, the agenda has finally included an item of consideration, which is that matters relating, and I'm quoting it here now matters relating to funding arrangements, responding to loss and damage associated with adverse effects of climate change, including a focus on addressing loss and damage. That's what the agenda item says.

So it's up! They got it up.

RUBY:

Right. Okay. So why is it then, if these Pacific nations have been pushing for this for three decades, that it's only now that it's finally being considered?

Mike:

Well, several reasons. I mean, I think you can't ignore the symbolism of the fact that this is the first COP to take place in Africa. And that's big because obviously a lot of the unequal consequences of climate are falling on places like Africa, as well as the Pacific, obviously, and parts of Asia, but particularly Africa. So that's one reason. Also, the U.N. general secretary, António Guterres, used his opening remarks to specifically push this kind of climate justice.

Archival tape -- António Guterres:

"The deadly impacts of climate change are here and now. Loss and damage can no longer be swept under the rug. It is a moral imperative. It is a fundamental question of international solidarity and climate justice."

Mike:

But really the reason it’s on the agenda is because of numbers. You know, when this push started thirty years ago, it was just a few small Pacific nations. Now, most of the developing world is behind it. You know, the so-called G77 plus China, which is actually well over 100 countries. I can't remember the exact number, but they are pushing it. So essentially, the developing world had the numbers to get it up. And they did.

And having pushed for it, we've seen some very, very powerful speeches from various leaders, you know, the Barbados Prime Minister Mia Mottley was particularly articulate, I thought.

Archival tape -- Mia Mottley:

"We believe that it is critical that we address the issue of loss and damage. The talk must come to an end."

Archival tape -- Mia Mottley:

"Our people on this earth deserve better. And what is more, our leaders know better."

Archival tape -- Mia Mottley:

"I ask the people of the world and not just the leaders, therefore, to hold us accountable and to ask us to act in your name, to save this earth and to save the people of this earth. The choice is ours. What will you do? What will you choose to save? Thank you."

RUBY:

We’ll be back in a moment.

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RUBY:

Mike, when we talk about the idea of climate justice and reparations, so wealthier nations who have done damage to the environment, whose actions have and continue to accelerate climate change, paying reparations to smaller and less wealthy countries who are seeing the effects of those decisions directly. Are we able to quantify what we mean? How do we decide on what the cost of climate change is and who should pay what and where those funds should go?

Mike:

Well, it's still a work in progress. I mean, you know, these are the details that have to be worked out. Getting it on the agenda is just a first step. And you're quite right, you know, deciding who apportions the money, how it's apportioned, etc. But what we can say with absolute clarity is that there is an injustice here, that it is directly impacting poorer countries more than wealthier countries. And let me go to some numbers here. According to the United Nations Office of Disaster Risk Reduction, which monitors calamities of all kinds all around the world, there's been an increase of about 83% in climate related disasters since the 1980s. So more floods, more storms, more droughts, more fires, more extreme heat events, more extreme climate slash weather events of all kinds. So not only have their numbers gone up dramatically, but the UN office goes on to point out that while the dollar value of losses are often greater in high income countries simply because they have better infrastructure in relative terms, it's poor countries that sustain the greater loss. And as a share of GDP, the cost to poorer countries is close to ten times as high as that for higher income nations. So, you know, in terms of their actual wealth, they're suffering much more greatly.

Now, no doubt, as you alluded to, there are practical difficulties, you know, to implementing this. You know, how do you apportion the costs amongst the wealthier nations? You know, some of the wealthier nations have obviously contributed much more to the problem than others.

And to be frank, you know, at this stage, we're seeing all sorts of proposals being floated. You know, maybe you could fund a loss and damage fund by a levy on countries according to their historical contributions to greenhouse emissions. Or you could tax billionaires, or maybe there could be some kind of subsidised insurance scheme which is a suggestion being pushed by some of the European countries like Germany and Austria. So we're still at a very early stage, I guess you would say, in working out how such compensation might be provided. Some wealthy nations are actually doing something to address this issue right now.

Archival tape -- Nicola Sturgeon:

"This COP needs to recognise much more fully the fundamental issues of fairness and justice that lie at the heart of the climate crisis."

Mike:

Scotland announced last year that it would put into a fund to pay developing countries for damage done by industrialisation in Scotland.

Archival tape -- Nicola Sturgeon:

"I mentioned Scotland's industrial past earlier. That is a source of pride to us, but it should also be a real cause for reflection."

Mike:

The First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, said the fund was for.

Archival tape -- Nicola Sturgeon:

"The loss and the damage that has been and is being suffered already by communities around the world due to drought, floods, desertification, loss of life and population displacement."

Mike:

Which is great right. But even after she upped this last week at the conference by a further £5 million, it's still just £7 million that Scotland is putting in.

Archival tape -- Nicola Sturgeon:

"Of course I recognise that in a global context our fund is very small but it is nevertheless important. And through it we are acknowledging head on these fundamental issues of international fairness."

Mike:

And clearly, you know, we've spoken about the size of the need here. That's not going to touch the sides. And so far, few other countries have shown any great interest in contributing to a fund of any such kind.

RUBY:

Right. And what about here in Australia? Are there any signs that the Australian Government would consider reparations, perhaps to go to countries in the Pacific that are seeing rising sea levels threaten their homes right now?

Mike:

Well, the fact is that so far Anthony Albanese evaded the question. It was actually put in Question Time last week by Peter Dutton.

Archival tape -- Milton Dick:

"Call the Honourable Leader of the Opposition."

Archival tape -- Peter Dutton:

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Prime Minister. Prime Minister, the Coalition has ruled out paying compensation to other nations for the effects of climate change. Will the Albanese Government also rule out signing Australia up to compensating other countries as part of the deal being negotiated? A COP27 in Egypt."

Mike:

And Peter Dutton. You know, of course you know is very much, well the Coalition generally is very sceptical of the whole idea of putting in money to deal with climate change and always been.

Archival tape -- Milton Dick:

"The Minister for Climate Change I’ll give the call to the Prime Minister. Order!"

Mike:

And frankly, Albanese did not rule it out, nor did he rule it in. Instead, he had a go back at Dutton, recalling how Dutton was caught back in 2015, joking with Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison about rising sea levels in the Pacific.

Archival tape -- Anthony Albanese:

"Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. One of the things I won't do is in front of a boom mic. Make a joke about our island neighbours staying. It's one of the things that I won't do. I won't."

Mike:

So I think we can say that the Australian Government has been at this stage kind of dancing around the issue and which is understandable because it is for Australia in particular, quite a delicate issue at the moment.

RUBY:

Okay. And when you say it's a delicate issue is what you mean there, that the Australian Government knows that it needs to address climate change and there is significant pressure both from voters and from Pacific nations in our region on that. But at the same time we continue to maintain our coal and gas industry and to be responsible for significant emissions as a result of that.

Mike:

Well, yes, absolutely. You've summed it up as well as I possibly could. And our Pacific neighbours can't be ignored. And it's particularly touchy for us at the moment because the Government has announced its intention to jointly fund or to jointly bid for a COP31 in 2026 to be held jointly with our Pacific Nation neighbours. And that could potentially be very embarrassing if, you know, we continue to be one of the world's major emitters, both in our own right and through the emissions we export in the form of coal and gas. You know, we have both the biggest per capita emitter in the developed world. As a nation, we're also the biggest exporter of carbon through coal and gas exports. So, you know, there will be continuing advocacy from the Pacific island countries for serious engagement on loss and damage and what they're owed by fossil fuel powered countries such as ours. And this is felt really deeply in the region. You know, as various experts were telling me, there's a shared sense of loss and damage that climate change is causing and will continue to cause in the future. So the Albanese Government has to do something. The question is whether it kicks into a big bucket of money such as is being proposed for loss and damage or whether it does something more regional. Putting more money into, you know, mitigation. But also, in the event that there is a major disaster, of course, Australia has always pitched in and would do so in the future. So, there are things that Australia could do to lift its game and improve its image in the region without necessarily joining a global loss and disaster fund.

RUBY:

Sure. But you've got people like Shiva calling for climate justice. So what happens for him and people who live in the country that he's from, if the world can't agree on some way to fund compensation or reparations, where does that leave people like him and people who live in Pacific nations?

Mike:

Well, it leaves them struggling in poverty and potentially it leaves them having to abandon their countries.

The number of refugees in the world last year was like 21 million. I think Mia Mottley was suggesting that it could be a billion by 2050 because climate change will make parts of the world uninhabitable. And in the case of the Pacific, it will simply inundate some parts, some islands in the Pacific. So if we don't do something on this, we're going to see immense movements of people already, quite apart from the number of refugees. There's like 30 million internally displaced people around the world. So they haven't left their countries, but they've been displaced within their countries by the consequences of climate change.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"Yes. I've had family members from my village who have had to relocate to other parts of Fiji."

Mike:

In Shiva's home country, Fiji. Still, there's 40,000. To this day, displaced.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"But it takes time, you know, it doesn't happen within a year, within two years. It could take ten years to just finally connect back to this land, but it's still not ancestral land for them."

Mike:

So there's an immense problem to be faced here.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"And for 30 years we've been coming call after call. Going to UN meetings after UN meetings, climate justice meetings at the climate justice meeting, to negotiate for our lives and for our survival."

Mike:

And the fact is, the developed world has got a very difficult choice here. They can either ante up with lots of money to pay compensation for the historical wrong that has been done to these nations. Or they can see mass, probably uncontrollable movement of people around the world, which, of course, brings its own costs.

Archival tape -- Shiva Gounden:

"Finally, the time for talk is over and we need to see some real, meaningful action that this COP and we've been talking this whole time that we wanted we want a dedicated loss and finance facility of 27 and the Pacific Islands Fiji included have been very clear that that's what they want a dedicated loss and damage finance facility established at this COP."

Mike:

So sooner or later, the wealthy nations of the world are going to have to face up to the fact that, you know, we're all in this together and we've got to start really putting in.

RUBY:

Mike, thank you so much for your time.

Mike:

Thank you.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today…

Turkish police have arrested a suspect in the bombing of a busy pedestrian street in Istanbul.

The blast, in the popular pedestrian street of Istiklal killed six people and injured 81 others.

Turkey’s President, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said that the attack “smells like terrorism”.

And,

Emergency services have carried out more than 100 rooftop rescues in New South Wales, with thousands of New South Wales residents told to evacuate due to flash flooding.

The Bureau of Meteorology says the immediate threat of severe thunderstorms has passed, but conditions remain susceptible to flooding if there’s more rainfall.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am, see you tomorrow!