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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones. This is 7am.

Rhys Cauzzo was one of hundreds of thousands of Australians who received unlawful and false debt notices under Robodebt. The 28 year old died by suicide in January of 2017, as debt collectors pursued him for $17,000. After his death, his mother Jenny, began to unravel just how many debt notices Rhys had received, and she decided to go public – speaking to The Saturday Paper about what had happened to her son.

Now - she’s giving evidence to the Royal Commission into Robodebt – and has learnt more about how senior government figures reacted to reports of his death.

Today, Jenny Miller, on her son Rhys, and her search for the truth.

It’s Tuesday, February 28

And a warning, this episode contains discussion of suicide.

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RUBY:

So, Jenny, I know you’ve spent the last few weeks at Robodebt Royal Commission, often attending those sessions in person. I wanted to ask what that has been like walking into room and sitting down listening to the evidence that's being given.

JENNY:

I have been either attending at the commission or I'm zooming in to the commission and I do watch and I want to be there, particularly when there are certain people on the witness stand because they need to know that I'm still hanging around, I'm still there, and I'm going to still cast my evil eye across that desk and look at you and it can be quite confronting because as I've investigated things for the last six years, particularly the ministers and the high end public servants, they can be sitting there saying they just can't recall.

Archival Tape – Mr West:

“Like I say, I don't recall, but so I don't recall whether or not we had a conversation. I don't recall how we were informed”

JENNY:

No, I don't believe that's right. I didn't put my mind to that.

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“Do you recall reading this email?”

Archival Tape – Ms Musolino:

“I don't recall reading it at the time.”

JENNY:

And I just think. Now knowing what I do know, I can't believe that these people are actually in office.

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“And do you recall taking that view or holding that position?”

Archival Tape – Alan Tudge:

“Um, I don't.”

JENNY:

Just Yeah. They can't seem to recall anything which I find quite amazing.

RUBY:

And Jenny, thousands and thousands of people were sent these unlawful debt notices, and one of them was your son, Rhys Cauzzo. How did you first start to discover that Rhys was being pursued for these so-called debts?

JENNY:

Well, I first went down in the first week of June in 2016, and Rhys had rung me towards the end of May. And he was really, really distressed. And I was on the phone to him for quite some time. And he said to me that he had received a debt, didn't tell me how he received that debt as in myGov or a letter. He just said, I've got this debt. There's no way that I owe this money. You know, I made the odd phone call and I just don't know how to handle it. So I said, right, calmed him down. I said, What we're going to do is get you back into a program with your doctors and your psychologist, and then we'll go and sort out this Centrelink debt. So when I went down there, we did organise doctors and psychologist appointments and I accompanied Rhys into the Centrelink office at Windsor and they said, I can't help you. And there was an 1800-number that he was given to ring. And I just thought, this is crazy. Why can't they just look at your, you know, your file and. And, yeah, they just would not do it.

So we walked out of there and I said to Rhys, don't worry about Centrelink, I'll sort that out and will get you back on track. So at that point I certainly didn't know. How much harassment he was going to get. And I certainly didn't realise that they were ringing and leaving voicemails and sending text messages. And yeah, it was very devastating when I saw what he was actually being subjected to.

RUBY:

Hmm. And so when did you start to realise then what was actually going on? Just how many letters and phone calls he was receiving.

JENNY:

Okay. So when Rhys did take his life I flew down to Melbourne again the next day and I met up there with his partner Brit and Harry that was sharing the property. And my first reaction was to just try and find a note or something. You know that…Just why he had taken his life and there was nothing left. There were no notes, no nothing written in his journal.

So what I did is I was collate any information, any paperwork that I could find that I may have to deal with. So whether it was, you know, the rental or bills or whatever. So I collated all that. And whilst doing that, that's when I came across the Dun and Bradstreet letters of demand and the picture on the fridge next to it, which depicted a drawing of a head with a gun going through the mouth and dollar signs coming out through the brain and ‘debt life’ written next to that. So that's what made me think there was a lot more to this story.

RUBY:

So as you were collating all of this, and seeing all of the debt recovery notices that Rhys had been inundated with before he died – when was it that you realised there might actually be a connection between these letters and the government scheme that we now know as Robodebt?

JENNY:

When I spoke to his friends and work colleagues and the lady that Rhys was working for… When I said about the letters, I said, Oh, that's that must Robodebt. And of course, I hadn't heard about Robodebt. So they explained to me that there's this big thing going on, that they're sending people debts and debt letters they, and they're you know, garnishing people's tax returns, etc.. And I said, well, these were debts…these letters from Dun and Bradstreet were in relation to apparent debts from Centrelink. And that's when I started investigating a lot more into it.

So when I did return home, I then started writing letters, trying to get information, trying to find out what is this Robodebt and, you know, whether it was something that had pushed Rhys and I was blocked at every turn.

RUBY:

And so as you did that - wrote letters, asked for information, started to tell Rhys’s story - what response did you get from the government?

JENNY:

They denied that it was part of the Robodebt or pay as you go compliance system.

RUBY:

What did you think of that?

JENNY:

Well, I said to them, give me the proof. Show me. Show me how you've calculated these debts. And of course, no…didn't matter which way I went. Freedom of information. I had my accountant try and help me to work out, you know, where the debt may have come from. But no look, honestly, I was stonewalled at absolutely every turn. So, of course. The more I was blocked, the more I knew I was on the right track and the more I dug in to try and gain the truth.

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Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“Just before lunch I was asking you about the question of information about suicides which had reached the Minister's office and the general culture within the Minister's office. Can I take you to a specific example of that in the bundle? It relates to Mr. Rhys Cauzzo - do you recall that name?”

Archival Tape – Rachelle Miller:

“Yes, I do…”

RUBY:

Jenny, after you discovered the debt you son Rhys had been in, you started to investigate what happened to him in the days and months leading up to that. As part of that you went to the media - you spoke to The Saturday Paper and there was a story that was published in 2017, can you tell me about what you now know happened after that story went out?

JENNY:

Well, thanks to the Royal Commission, I have now seen all the documents that were in Rhys’s file – that are in Rhys’s file – from the reaction of the government to The Saturday Paper’s story.

Archival Tape – Rachelle Miller:

“And yes, I can see it here. Inquiry by The Saturday Paper. Yeah.”

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“If exhibit 4406 could be brought up…”

JENNY:

And they were just in a spin and in contact with ministers and in contact with high end public servants saying 'we need to stick to the same story... Do we know if it was a Robodebt or do we know if there is a vulnerability indicator on his file'?

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“Did you notice any impact of the decision to release personal information into the media upon the nature of media stories from that point?”

Archival Tape – Rachelle Miller:

“Yes.”

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“And what was the impact you observed?”

Archival Tape – Rachelle Miller:

“Well, there were less people speaking out in the media.”

JENNY:

So what they did was they released Rhys’ private, personal information. They said this is the correct information, it was not the robo debt. We did it manually. This is the fact that he worked here, here and this much money and everyone right through from the media, right through to the ombudsman, to the coroners, everyone was given false information. So it is was very difficult time to try and get the truth.

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“And your chief of staff strongly advised you. Well… advised you?”

Archival Tape – Alan Tudge:

“Yes.”

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“...That it might be a bad look to provide some details about this person in the media in response.”

Archival Tape – Alan Tudge:

“Yes.”

JENNY:

To me, it was definitely something that the ministers at the time did want to continue to do because it looked good to their budget. It looked good to probably the commercial part of the world or of Australia, because, you know, we're hunting down fraudsters. They can't get away with ripping off the system.

So it was all very self-righteous and it was all about control. And it was all about, you know, it's very hard to put into words, but basically they're all a bunch of narcissists, as far as I'm concerned. And throughout this whole hearing to date, we've not had one minister or public servant admit any liability in any form because they are all just worried about their own, you know, own levels within government and their power within government. And yeah, so that's why they just kept going with it. They ignored anything that they were advised.

RUBY:

And so, Jenny, after watching ministers, public servants have their say at the royal commission, you actually, you gave evidence yourself. Can you tell me about the moment that you got to speak at the commission and what it is that you wanted to say to get on the record?

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“I turn now to the question of evidence today, Commissioner. The evidence today will commence with Ms.. Miller, whose son, Rhys Cauzzo, committed suicide on 26th January 2017 after debts were generated using averaging in the PAYG Manual Compliance intervention process…”

JENNY:

For me, the importance was to ensure that these ministers and public servants were aware that they had done the wrong thing. They had made so many people suffer because of their own greed and their own balance of power and how vulnerable people don't need to be looked after. And yeah, it was so wrong that they actually went ahead with this program.

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“Did you come to learn that a debt collection agency, Dun and Bradstreet, had been assigned by the Department of Human Services to pursue Rhys in respect of the debts alleged by the department?”

Archival Tape – Jenny Miller:

“Yes. Yes.”

Archival Tape – Justin Greggery KC:

“And do you recall how many of those letters were on the fridge?”

Archival Tape – Jenny Miller:

“There's five letters, and I thought it was like a business card …”

JENNY:

I just wanted to ensure that the truth got out there on Rhys’ behalf and that, no, he wasn't at all bludger and he wasn't a fraudster. He was just a beautiful, gentle man who yes, he was a bit he was creative. He was a little bit eccentric. But he also did suffer from mental health, which, you know, he probably has inherited from myself. So to get that point out there and to pretty much… how can I put this nicely and not jam it up them. But, but yeah, just to enforce the truth, I was so pleased I was able to do that.

Archival Tape – Jenny Miller:

“I find it extraordinary the lengths they have been to… to try and get me to stop being so persistent. And. I truly, truly hope that this now sets up a precedent that you're working in public office. You were there to work for the people. So do your job and do it properly”

JENNY:

And look, honestly, the other witnesses that have come forward. You know their stories are heartbreaking, no one should have had to suffer and, you know, live in their cars or trying a loan from the bank to pay back a false debt. It should never, ever had happened. And hopefully now we have set a precedent and things will change dramatically.

RUBY:

Yeah, as you say, there were so many other people and young people as well, like Rhys, who were pursued under Robodebt.

JENNY:

Oh God yeah!

RUBY:

They had no way of knowing at the time how unlawful it actually was. So when you think about the way that the government treated Rhys and other people as well like him, what is your view now on the actions that I suppose were taken by so many an entire system of people that put this in place and then allowed it to continue on for so long.

JENNY:

Look, I think one of the biggest things I've learnt over this whole journey is please do your homework. You know, to anyone out there that is maybe they're still receiving debts or they're being harassed, Please do your homework and, and don't give in. Don't give in. Don't. Please don't take your life over debt and a false debt at that.

RUBY:

And I mean I'm sure that through this whole process that there would have been so many things that you learnt about Rhys and his life in Melbourne and his friends and can you tell me about how you, how you think about him now and how you remember him.

JENNY:

Oh look, it's, yeah, it's, it's really hard. I mean, I think of him probably 24 hours a day. But, you know, I do have his artwork. I've got beautiful photos and and probably thankfully for social media, you know, I'm able to keep in contact with all his friends. And every time I do go to Melbourne, I do catch up with everyone. One of Rhys’ friends is getting married in November, so they've invited me down there for the wedding. You know, we, we all often talk about Rhys and we share stories and his partner Brett, we still talk very regularly and we keep in contact. I see her every time I can. And one of his really good friends. She's recently had a little baby and she's called her Miller because my last name being Miller, of course. But as far as she was concerned, Rhys was Rhys Miller. And so she named her little baby girl, Miller after, after Rhys. So, yeah, there's so many people that he just affected their lives in such a positive way.

RUBY:

Well, thank you so much for talking to me about him.

JENNY:

Yeah. Thank you.

RUBY:

And I'm really sorry for your loss. I really am.

JENNY:

Yeah. The world lost a beautiful man.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today…

Woodside - Australia’s largest oil and gas company - have reported soaring profits of nearly 10 billion Australian dollars, nearly triple their earnings in 2021. The 228 per cent rise is mostly due to higher prices on gas caused by the war in Ukraine.

The announcement comes as Woodside faces growing backlash over its promise of net zero carbon emissions by 2050, which critics say is incompatible with Woodside's proposed expansions.

Just one of these projects, the Burrup Hub gas expansion in WA, could release more than 6 billion tonnes of co2 once in operation.

AND…

An Australian archaeologist and his research team have walked free after being held captive in Papua New Guinea.

Professor Bryce Barker had been doing fieldwork in the highlands when he was taken hostage one week ago. The kidnappers had asked for a ransom of nearly 1.5 million Australian dollars as compensation for two men injured by security guards at a nearby logging site.

The professor was the last of the group to be released, after a much smaller ransom was paid.

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