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DANIEL:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James, this is 7am.

They’re hard to miss. The number of gambling ads flooding our screens and devices everyday.

They’ve become such an inescapable part of sport, that a parliamentary inquiry was formed which looked at the impacts the ads are having on the community.

In the final months of her life, the Labor MP Peta Murphy was the chair of that inquiry, and after hearing from the gambling industry, dependent sporting codes and families impacted by gambling addiction, her position was unequivocal. All ads for online gambling should be banned.

It’s been more than 14 months since the government received her recommendations, and yet the proliferation of gambling ads has continued unabated. Now, the government could be set to water down a ban in favour of caps on the number of ads per hour.

Today, independent Senator David Pocock, on the stranglehold the gambling industry has on Australian sport and politics and what could be done to change it.

It’s Tuesday, August 6.

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DANIEL:

Senator Pocock, thanks for your time.

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

Hey Daniel, good to be with you.

DANIEL:

Senator, it seems to be part of the business model but also part of the culture of several sports now, we know Australians lose more on gambling than anywhere else in the world. Can you tell me about how big an issue it is and who is impacted by this?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

Well, we're the biggest losers in the world when it comes to gambling. We're number one on a per capita basis, $25 billion a year we're losing. And no one's suggesting that adults be banned from gambling. This conversation really is around, what does it mean when you have a sports betting industry that is spending $280 million a year on advertising to the point that three out of four 8-16 year olds think that sports betting is now just a normal part of enjoying sport. It's what you do.

And, we've got Gamblers Anonymous groups reporting that more under 18s are starting access to their services. This is really about protecting young people. And we have Peta Murphy's Review.

Audio Excerpt - Peta Murphy:

“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Social Policy and Legal Affairs, I present the committee's report entitled "You Win Some, You Lose More. Online Gambling and Its impacts on those experiencing it….”

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

A report that didn't mince its words. You know, Peta Murphy said in her report, gambling ads are grooming children.

Audio Excerpt - Peta Murphy:

“And what we heard, from submitters ranging from people with lived experience to researchers and academics and even people in the industry, is that tinkering around the edges isn't going to cut it either.”

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

And they had a host of recommendations, including a three year phase out of all gambling advertising, working with sports and industries that will be affected. And, instead of backing that piece of work in, we're seeing the federal government not have the courage to take on the gambling industry. We haven't seen the full details, but it sounds like they're going to be introducing caps on advertising.

DANIEL:

So there may not be a total ban but there may be a ban on gambling ads on social media. Seems like the government is leaning toward implementing that aspect of the report, what impact do you think an online ban will have?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

One of the really worrying things, talking to researchers who've been looking at this, is because these gambling companies have such huge budgets, not just to place ads on social media and online platforms, but also to develop them, the feedback from particularly young men and boys is that they actually really enjoy the ads. They're entertaining, it's their favourite sports star or it's, you know, Shaquille O'Neal and they're funny. And then they really speak to that audience. And that's incredibly worrying because what they're pushing is something that we know has significant harm. And I think only a total phase ban will ensure that we deliver on what Australians overwhelmingly want and what advocates are telling us is needed to start to turn this around. When you implement a patchy ban, you're going to get patchy results, and companies will find workarounds and loopholes.

DANIEL:

And so what we've heard over the weekend in relation to that, Senator, is that the government is not looking to have the same ban for commercial television. We're looking at two gambling ads per hour on each channel until 10pm and banning ads an hour before and after live sport. What do you make of that as a solution?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

We can't have gambling companies dictating government policy. Clearly the government, rather than backing in a report that had the backing of every party in the parliament of independents, they're saying, well, we see your report, but actually we're going to do more something that's more in line with what the gambling industry wants. And, it's not hard to understand why, when you see FOI documents that reveal that the minister in office met 66 times with gambling executives in six months. That's a lot of meetings about an upcoming reform and you talk about advocates who are really trying to push for Australians, you know, health and wellbeing to put front and centre in this. They’re certainly not getting that kind of access.

And this is having a very real impact on thousands and thousands of Australians. I was recently at a parliamentary event on gambling and we had a family come and talk about their son who'd struggled with a sports betting addiction to the point that he'd tragically taken his own life. And I remember sitting there as they read his suicide note thinking, what are we doing? How can we still be debating whether we should be allowing rampant advertising for gambling while families are losing their, you know, mostly sons to these products?

DANIEL:

After the break, the lengths the gambling lobby has gone to to prevent change.

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DANIEL:

Senator Pocock the parliamentary inquiry heard from advocates for change, but also heard from gambling companies and the sports codes.

Audio Excerpt - Gillon McLachlan:

“And while the AFL has a prominent sponsorship relationship with our betting partner Sportsbet, and product fare arrangements…”

DANIEL:

Gillon McLachlan was Chief Executive of the AFL at the time. In his submission, he talked about the fact that gambling revenue generated by the AFL is reinvested into grassroots sport, and he opposed the ban.

Audio Excerpt - Gillon McLachlan:

“And betting on our sport, which allows us to invest in integrity and the grassroots participation and the growth of our sport. We believe…”

DANIEL:

If a ban was to be implemented, what impact do you think it would have on grassroots sport?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

And this is part of the consideration of The Murphy Review. And that's why they proposed a three year phased approach, as well as a range of other recommendations. Like establishing a national gambling regulator; developing a national harm minimisation strategy; a levy on gambling operators to pay for some of the harms that they cause. And we've heard from sports, when tobacco advertising was banned, we heard all the same arguments. That it would mean less revenue. It would potentially be existential for them.

For me, this is about, one, putting Australians' health and wellbeing ahead of mostly multinational gambling companies. And secondly, really trying to go to the question, what is sport for? Is sport something that is there to be enjoyed somewhere where people can feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves? That they can challenge themselves and then when they support their favourite team to feel that, you know, excitement and exhilaration of supporting a team with thousands of other people and being part of that crowd. Or is it simply a product that allows administrators to flog other things that we know are harmful, and are particularly harmful to young people? And what I'm hearing, as an independent senator, is that people want sport to be the first thing and that's going to mean that we have to break this nexus between gambling and professional sport.

Audio Excerpt - Sky News reporter:

“Former AFL boss Gillon McLachlan has been appointed as the new CEO of Tabcorp…”

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

And, you know, it's no surprise that someone like Gillon McLachlan then goes and works for the gambling industry.

Audio Excerpt - Sky News reporter:

“He is a familiar face to many having steered the AFL to great success for a long time. And he joins Tabcorp now that’s got some challenges on its hands…”

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

I dare say they wouldn't be making that hire if we'd actually implemented The Murphy Review recommendations.

DANIEL:

What does it say about the relationship between sport and gambling that someone like Gillon McLachlan has gone on as the new role of Chief Executive of Tabcorp, Australia's largest gambling company?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

Well, it says that with some particular sports it's become totally enmeshed. It's no longer just a sponsor, it's part of the business model. And we have to break that, and that's what The Murphy Review did.

And this is something that independents and multiple minor parties in the parliament have been pushing the government on, because we're here to represent our communities. We're not here to represent the gambling industry. And what we're hearing is that people want this dealt with. There's the political will in the parliament, and it's incredibly disappointing, and I think displays a real lack of courage from the government to not follow through with it.

DANIEL:

Last year the communications minister, Michelle Rowland, faced calls to resign after it was revealed that Sportsbet had made financial contributions to her election campaign. You also mentioned earlier that the minister has met with gambling companies on numerous occasions. What faith should Australians have in the political process when we hear stories like that?

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

Well, I was very concerned about, you know, hearing that Sportsbet had made donations. The minister hadn't declared them because they were below the threshold. And, you know, the government sort of said, well, there's been no wrong committed here.

Which I think points to how, sort of, lacking political donation and transparency arrangements when it comes to our elections. And then also, I think, when it comes to lobbying. We only know about all these meetings because of FOI requests. There's currently a very loose lobbyist register. Ministerial diaries aren't released. These are all things that I think should also happen.

But the most worrying thing is that after that, the whole thing after the election campaign, the minister then gets wined and dined on her birthday by the gambling industry, and again doesn't think that there's any issue with that, you know, which I think is pretty extraordinary. And I think when you see The Murphy Review, alongside the sentiment from the majority of Australians, like, you know, I think the last polling I saw was 70% of Australians want a total gambling ad ban. When you compare that to what the government's now going to offer up as their solution, you have to start asking questions about vested interests, about access, about the power of lobbyists and industry to get the outcome they want, not the outcome that's good for Australians.

This requires political courage and people want to see this happen. And this will certainly be something that I'll continue to push the government on now and into the election.

DANIEL:

Senator Pocock, thank you for your time.

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK:

Thanks for having me, Daniel. Cheers.

DANIEL:

If you’re affected by gambling and need support there is a website: www.gamblinghelponline.org.au.

DANIEL:

Also in the news today,

ASIO has lifted the terror threat to probable. ASIO’s Director General Mike Burgess said more Australians are being radicalised, and more quickly, making our security situation volatile and unpredictable.

He said the conflict in Gaza had been a “significant driver”, though was not the cause for raising the terror threat.

The terror threat had been on the lower level of “possible” since November 2022.

And the new minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, says the federal government has not abandoned plans to establish a Makarrata Truth Commission.

At the Garma Festival in north east Arnhem Land over the weekend, Mr Albanese said a truth telling commission was not what the government was proposing, instead saying he meant “makaratta” as simply a coming together after a struggle.

Key YES campaigners criticised Mr Albanese for breaking a key election promise, but Senator McCarthy says he was misrepresented and the government is sticking with its commitment.

That’s all for today. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. It helps a lot.

I’m Daniel James, this is 7am, thanks for listening.