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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

The fight over abortion in Queensland had seemed settled. It was decriminalised in 2018 and has enjoyed solid public support since then.

But with Katter’s Australian Party now promising to introduce a bill to repeal those laws in the new parliament. It’s become a surprise issue heading into this weekend’s election.

The leader of the Liberal National Party David Crisafulli has insisted he has no plans to change the laws, but if enough of his MPs choose to vote with their conscience, the decision could be out of his hands.

Today, reporter and director of F&K Media, Kaitlyn Sawrey on the fight over abortion rights and how it will affect who leads Queensland.

It’s Thursday October 24.

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RUBY:

Kaitlyn. Hello. How are you?

KAITLYN:

Good afternoon. Good.

RUBY:

So nice to see you. You’re in Queensland at the moment, in the electorate of Caloundra. And the state election is just a few days away. So in this final stretch, what has it been like? What are you seeing and hearing?

KAITLYN:

Yes, I'm seeing abortion signs popping up quite a few different variations, but the ones I saw today were a vote for the LNP, is a vote to make abortion a crime. I saw three of them on my way to work today. And they've been moving around the neighbourhood so I'm assuming some of them are being pulled out and replaced with different ones. But it is interesting because this is a marginal seat. Labor won it for the first time in 2020 by a margin of 2.5%.

And it's an electorate where there's a lot of young families moving into the area. There's a big housing development locally. You've got a lot of people moving up from the south, from Victoria, from New South Wales because of the beaches. It's not that far from Brisbane. And so it's an area where, you know, this kind of campaign around abortion access might actually have some impact.

RUBY:

Okay. Well, let's talk about the campaign around abortion access. It didn't seem like it was a major issue in this election until very recently. So tell me about how that happened.

KAITLYN:

Yeah. So Robbie Katter let off a bit of a hand grenade. He was asked about his position on abortion because he has introduced a private member's bill previously, earlier this year around late term abortions. So he was asked about this again and he said that he would work to repeal the legalisation of abortion, quote, as quick as you like.

Audio Excerpt - Robbie Katter:

“We will quick as you like, put a repeal bill back into the Queensland Parliament on these abortion laws.”

KAITLYN:

This isn't something he said he was set out to deliberately talk about in this campaign. It was put to him, so he answered it and he's like, I'm a straight up guy. You know, I'll answer the questions that are sent my way.

Audio Excerpt - Robbie Katter:

“I responded as I always would, by saying that if a proposition was put to us, there was an opportunity to progress something that aligns with our values. What I take it the answer will always be yes. And you can cut and paste abortion with vegetation management laws or climate tax or whatever you like.”

KAITLYN:

But it has really given Labor the legs to go, what could happen in a new government, particularly when it seems pretty likely that we're going to have an LNP government?

RUBY:

Okay. Can we pause and talk a little more about Robbie Katter here? Because I think his father, Bob Katter, the more well-known politician. But Bob retired, I believe not too long ago, and Robbie took over his party. So tell me a bit more about this family and and their role in the Queensland political life.

KAITLYN:

Yes. So Robbie Katter is Bob Katter's son and Bob Katter senior has his influence goes back to the 70s. So he was first elected in the 70s. He became a minister under Premier Joh Bjelke-Petersen who people will famously know, and the Katter party when they formed in the 2010 were really, they're really a north Queensland party. They have at least four seats are expected to retain those seats and maybe even pick up another one.

And it's a it's a party that really represents, you know, parts of north Queensland that don't feel like they're represented by the major parties. So they have Christian values. They've talked about things like corporal punishment for children and and, and parents having the right to do that.

Audio Excerpt - Unknown:

“The matter of the fact his parents had lost their right to discipline the children. Some kids need a smack or kick up the ass, a ruler.”

KAITLYN:

So they bring up things that maybe the major parties aren't too interested in talking about. But the Katter Party will.

RUBY:

Okay. And so while the Katter party is, I suppose, a minor party, it does sound like it's got a long history and it's got significant power. But I mean, just how far does that stretch? Why did the suggestion that they might introduce a bill to repeal abortion, why did that have such a big impact on this election campaign?

KAITLYN:

Yes. So earlier this year, Robbie Katter introduced a member's bill that failed on late term abortions, focusing on the human rights of babies born alive after abortion.

Audio Excerpt - Robbie Katter:

“Mr Acting speaker, more than 30 babies, people, are born into this world, live in Queensland each year as a result of late term pregnancy termination procedure. 30 babies. This bill to amend the Termination of Pregnancy Act 2018 and enshrines in legislation the fundamental human rights of all persons, human babies.”

KAITLYN:

Now, this is something that happens very rarely and there's lots of guardrails about how these things are handled. But Robbie Katter is really concerned that babies born and that survive the abortion end up in the bin. And that's a claim he said a few times as recently as last week.

Audio Excerpt - Robbie Katter:

“If a baby's planned abortion comes out breathing with a heartbeat. I'm probably going to struggle for life, but I can just give it some care and dignity. It's a human rights issue. It's not an abortion issue to me.”

KAITLYN:

So that when I put that to medical professionals they like, that's really insensitive and that is not something that is happening. And it also undermines the professionalism of of medical professionals in this field who are doing everything they can to work with families.

David Crisafulli, the leader of the LNP, has said it's not part of the plan. I'm ruling out any changes to abortion.

Audio Excerpt - David Crisafulli:

“There won’t be a change. It has been vitriolic. It has crossed the line and I have ruled it out.”

KAITLYN:

Although he said there's no plan to change abortion in Queensland, he has also not ruled out a conscience vote.

So whether it actually gets traction in the parliament, post this election this weekend is kind of up to whether there is a conscience vote on the issue because if Katter's Party puts in a bill that says we want people to be out of art on their conscience, a conscience vote would allow his members to vote however they like. And we don't know what that would look like.

Also what's interesting here is that the LNP broadly voted against the legalisation of abortion in 2018, and Crisafulli and his deputy, Darren Leahy were among them. Only three members of the LNP voted with Labor.

So we have this situation where the leader of the LNP is saying, look, there'll be no changes. You've just got to trust us. But when you look at how they have voted previously, they have voted against decriminalising abortion in Queensland.

And the Labor Party have seen this as a way to wedge the LNP by saying a vote for the LNP is a vote for criminalising abortion in Queensland.

Audio Excerpt - Protestors:

“My body my choice! My body my choice!”

Audio Excerpt - Steven Miles:

“I think this is, this is a really important issue.”

Audio Excerpt - David Crisafulli:

“I think it shouldn't change, I think it shouldn't change, the law should remain the same.”

Audio Excerpt - Steven Miles:

“Will you have a conscience vote?”

Audio Excerpt - David Crisafulli:

“The laws will remain the same.”

Audio Excerpt - Steven Miles:

“What is your view?”

Audio Excerpt - David Crisafulli:

“There will be no change.”

KAITLYN:

So it really is a live issue in Queensland now even though this wasn't something we expected from this campaign, suddenly we're all talking about abortion when this was kind of put to bed in 2018, but now it's become a part of this election campaign.

RUBY:

After the break, how abortion access in Queensland could be wound back with or without an abortion bill.

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RUBY:

So let's talk more, Kaitlyn, about the pre 2018 scenario and the context for this. I mean, how contentious has the issue of abortion been in Queensland before?

KAITLYN:

Yeah. So I started reporting on abortion politics in Queensland when I was like 21 years old. So in Queensland the laws were written in 1899. Abortion was criminalised in Queensland before Queensland women got the vote in 1905. And those laws kind of stayed in place for a very long time. It wasn't until 1985 that we had a doctor actually charged with those laws for performing an abortion and they went to trial and he was able to argue that it was in the interest of the women's health, and that became the legal defence upon which all abortion services in Queensland were accessed.

So basically we're kind of in this grey zone until about 2009 when there was this weird case where a young couple imported an abortion drug from Ukraine. And at the time abortion pills were able to be accessed by a gynaecologist in Cairns, Caroline de Costa. But they went down this other route where they got it imported through a friend who was flying on a flight to Cairns. And so they were charged under that law. And there was kind of this question and this tension around like, abortion is criminalised in Queensland, but it also has this legal defence. How covered are doctors in Queensland?

And so things kind of ticked along until 2016 when independent Rob Pyne introduced a private member's bill seeking to decriminalise abortion. And that went to the Law Reform Commission. And they looked at these 1899 laws and spent a year looking at it. They had committees, they went around to Queenslanders asking them how do they feel about these laws and really kind of brought the public along with them. And they did a lot of surveys kind of seeing, you know, what was the appetite for change in Queensland?

And so that ended up being a piece of legislation that went to the Queensland Government and was finally signed in 2018 making abortion legal. So that's kind of the journey that we've been on from 1899 to 2018 and now in 2024, the whole debate started again.

RUBY:

Okay. But there is a difference, isn't there, between abortion being decriminalised and it being a realistic option for women. So when it comes to access, particularly in more remote or more regional areas, what is that like as it stands?

KAITLYN:

Yes. So it is expanding. So the Labour Government recently passed laws expanding access to abortion services, particularly in regional areas. Again, that was opposed broadly by the LNP. And so they've put aside $41.8 million towards the termination of Pregnancy Action Plan 2032 over five years. And what that does is it allows qualified nurses and midwives to perform medical termination using the MS2-step in the early stages of pregnancy. So it means that there are more people who can give out this medication and work with women who are in regional and remote areas who may not be able to access a hospital.

So in large parts of Queensland, it's a long way to get to a hospital. And a surgical abortion is, you know, quite a procedure for some people. So to have medical access where you can just take a pill, do it from home, be supervised by a nurse is another way to go. And so that is rolling out.

And when I spoke to Caroline de Costa, who was in an early part of the mifepristone access, she's the first doctor in Australia who was granted access to be able to give this to women. She said that it is coming into the public system so it is becoming part of public health care in Queensland. But that process is ongoing. It's not, it's not a kind of snap your fingers and it happens overnight.

RUBY:

Okay. And so throughout this election campaign, David Crisafulli, he has been trying very hard to sell himself as this sort of moderate and more contemporary leader. And if he wins, it will be somewhat of an anomaly. Not many states or territories are governed by a Liberal Party right now.

So do you think that that signals that he will face unique challenges as the leader of the Queensland LNP and potentially as Premier?

KAITLYN:

Yes. So it is an interesting scenario because we haven't had an LNP leader in Queensland for a while. The last one was Campbell Newman and he was kind of a different political beast to David Crisafulli. Political scientist from Griffith, Associate Professor Paul Williams kind of says we're in uncharted territory. We don't we haven't really had a situation in Queensland where we've had a progressive leader with a party room that is at least three quarters capital C conservative.

But if there's enough of a swing towards Crisafulli and he has a mandate to say, Look, I was elected, I'm the leader. The political analysts I spoke to said that he should have enough power to keep the party in line.

RUBY:

Right, so even if an abortion bill doesn't materialise or doesn't get through parliament, there are other ways, aren't there? making it difficult to be able to access abortion services.

KAITLYN:

Yeah. I was speaking to the CEO of Children by Choice, Jill McKay, and she said there's lots of ways you can make abortion access less accessible that are less obvious than going the criminalisation of abortion route.

Audio Excerpt - Jill McKay:

“We are funded, we are Queensland's only government funded all options pregnancy counselling service. Any other program that someone would contact or any other service that they're contacting outside of Queensland Health, they will be running into anti-choice people.”

KAITLYN:

So their funding comes from the government. That can be reduced over time, which means that you give more space to people who may not talk about abortion access to to people who are pregnant and wanting counselling. You can also reduce the access to publicly accessible abortion in Queensland so you can roll back some of that funding where it's going through the public system.

Audio Excerpt - Jill McKay:

“Perhaps they, you know, the way to take away that all choice space is to fund other programs or services or highlight them, or also to reduce the access, public access to abortion in Queensland. So there's many, many other ways to kind of look at it. And because we don't know, we're scared. From Children by Choices perspective, we have reached to have in that letter that we sent out, it's on public record. Please can we meet with you, can we please individually meet with you, to talk with you as a candidate about your perspective is on abortion access in Queensland and not one of them has taken it up.”

KAITLYN:

And so this debate shows us that even though public opinion is really strong, that the majority of people in Queensland support abortion access, this debate is far from settled. It's an issue that will always get people riled up. It's an issue that will always attract attention. And so even though there is broad public support, this is something that's going to come up again and again and and throw into question women's right to have control over their body.

RUBY:

Well, Caitlyn, thank you so much for your time today.

KAITLYN:

You're welcome.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today,

Bruce Lerhmann is permitted to continue to appeal his failed defamation case against Channel 10.

The federal court has granted Lerhmann a stay of the $2 million cost, and dismissed 10’s application for Lerhmann to pay $200,000 as a security for the cost of the upcoming appeal.

Lerhmann did not appear in court for the hearings, with his lawyer stating he is scared to attend court after becoming “arguably Australia’s most hated man.”

And, Donald Trump has made an extraordinary claim that the UK Labour Party has committed election interference, just 2 weeks from the vote on November 5.

In a written complaint, which misspells the word “Britain”, it’s claimed that Labour sent party members to campaign for Harris in key states.

The letter references a LinkedIn post from the head of operations at UK Labour that claimed 100 current and former staffers were campaigning for Harris.

The Guardian reports the volunteers were campaigning on their personal time and not in their capacity for Labour.

I am Ruby Jones, 7am will be back tomorrow.

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