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ASHLYNNE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ashlynne McGhee. This is 7am.

If we were to tell you there was an issue that’s exposing divides within our political parties; that pits their traditional supporters against each other and fractures the electorate – your first thought might not be vapes.

But that’s exactly what the government’s new vaping ban is doing to both the Greens and the Coalition as they decide whether to vote for it.

Parents sick of seeing their kids sneaking a vape are putting pressure on the Coalition, while the Greens don’t want to look like squares to their younger voters.

Today, The Saturday Paper’s Jason Koutsoukis on the politics of the new ban and why it’ll be so hard to police.

It’s Friday June 7.

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ASHLYNNE:

Jason, if the Health Minister, Mark Butler, has his way, there'll be some massive changes around who can buy vapes and where you can buy them in about a month from now. Tell me more about this plan.

JASON:

So when vapes first came onto the market around 20 years ago, the pitch was that vapes were another alternative to cigarette smoking.

Audio excerpt — Australian Tobacco Harm Reduction Association ad:

“A friend of mine who was a bit concerned about my switch back to smoking cigarettes said ‘what are you doing, why don’t you try vaping?’ So since I switched to vaping, I’ve been able to walk upstairs.”

JASON:

…and that offered a pathway to to quit smoking, and they were sold as a therapeutic good.

Audio excerpt — Australian Tobacco Harm Reduction Association ad:

“I tried vaping and I just switched instantly. I have never had a cigarette since that day and have never craved a cigarette.”

JASON:

But over the last 20 years, we've seen people take up vaping not to quit smoking, but just as an entirely new habit.

Audio excerpt — The Vaping Bogan (YouTube influencer):

“Here we are! Paris Vape Expo 2024, it’s a show that I’ve never been to before and I’ve always wanted to…”

JASON:

And we've got to the point where there's around 1.7 million people who are vaping on a regular basis. We've seen a surge in the number of teenagers aged 14 to 17 take up vaping. I think it's now up to around 10%.

The previous government decided not to ban vapes. And when this government came into power, you know, around two years ago, the government is under a lot of pressure from peak medical bodies, also from the education sector and just ordinary constituents. This is one of the top issues that MPs say that voters engage them on. You know, why aren't you doing something to stop vaping?

Audio excerpt — Jason Clare:

“This is what a New South Wales principal said last year. Quote, ‘students are so desperate to have the next vape or get money to have the next fight, that students have become more aggressive, more agitated, less cooperative, less engaged with their school work.’”

JASON:

Mark Butler's introduced new regulations, he's banned the importation of vapes at the border.

Audio excerpt — The Vaping Bogan (YouTube influencer):

“In the last few days, the Australian government has, the Health Minister Mr. Mark Butthead (sic) Butler, made some announcements in the mainstream media that they will be bringing in some of these planned tough regulations…”

JASON:

He's introduced other regulations so that you can only get nicotine vapes through a pharmacy.

Audio excerpt — Mark Butler (ABC radio):

“They've been flooding in for the last several years, literally flooding in. And we gave them those resources. And in just the first two months or not quite two months of the ban being in effect, that seized, on my advice, more than 360,000 disposable vapes - so, now illegal…”

JASON:

At the moment, tobacco shops, convenience stores are allowed to sell vapes that don't contain nicotine. The trouble is, it's very difficult to police. We don't have enough police or customs officials to go around testing every vape in every shop. Mark Butler wants to stop that and he thinks the best way to do that is, is just to ban all vapes.

Audio excerpt — News reporter (9 News):

“If Labor's plan successfully navigates Parliament, Australia would have the world's toughest anti vaping laws. And with one in four young adults using e-cigarettes in Australia, health experts say it's desperately needed.”

JASON:

So after that first wave of regulatory changes we're now at the second stage of reforms. If this law passes the Senate, you won't be able to go into a convenience store or any other retail outlet and buy a vape anymore. All those specialty vape shops that have sprung up in shopping malls and shopping strips around the country over the last ten years. They'll be forced out of business overnight. So that the only place you can get a vape is at a pharmacy, and while that may sound like a fairly simple idea, it's actually quite a complex issue for all the different parties that will be debating this issue when it actually goes into the Senate for a vote.

ASHLYNNE:

So the legislation to ban vapes, like you said it’s before the Senate at the moment, and the government's presumably in talks with, you know, the other parties to get the support it needs to pass it. Where does the coalition sit on this? Because that's the easiest route to passing this legislation, right?

JASON:

That's right. The coalition is actually quite divided on this issue. A significant number of coalition members and senators believe that vapes should be regulated like any other tobacco product. David Littleproud, the nationals leader, yeah he's come out very strongly in favour of allowing vapes to be sold over the counter

Audio excerpt — David Littleproud:

“But the reality is, that prohibition hasn't worked…”

JASON:

The National Party has a history of being seen over the years to be quite close to the tobacco industry so their position is clear and they will vote against this legislation.

Audio excerpt — David Littleproud:

“And when we did regulate cigarettes through point of sale to 18 years plus through licensed premises, then what happens is as well as, controlling the ingredients in the packaging, we saw an 80% reduction in juvenile use of cigarettes. And then you collect that GST, you collect that excise…”

JASON:

But then you have other coalition members and senators who are concerned about the health impact of vaping. I mean, what's really interesting to me about this issue is how vaping is probably one of the issues that is of most concern to professional women. And one of the things that has really seen a decline in the coalition's vote over the last 10 to 15 years is professional women leaving the Liberal Party and if the coalition votes against this legislation, then I think that's really going to hurt the coalition with professional women voters. And so there are a significant number of Liberal Party MPs who are really worried about how that's going to look if the coalition votes against this legislation.

I think it's a tricky dilemma for Peter Dutton because if he backs voting for this legislation, then the law will pass and that is essentially a loss for David Littleproud and the Nats. And because the Nationals party room is so divided, there's those that still believe Barnaby Joyce should be the leader. I think there's no doubt that he would like to become the leader of the Nationals once again if he gets the chance. And if this legislation becomes law, there are some Liberal Party MPs and senators who are worried that this would give a bit of a win for Barnaby Joyce and could unsettle the coalition.

ASHLYNNE:

Okay, so negotiating with the coalition is one path the government has and potentially the easiest. But what about one of the other paths? And that's talking to the Greens. Where do they sit on this ban?

JASON:

Well the greens are very concerned that they don't want to say vaping prohibited. So they don't want to see any sort of circumstance where it becomes, that if you are vaping that you are committing a crime. So there's no way that they will allow that to happen. And I think there's a lot of Greens voters who are probably vapers.

Audio excerpt — The Vaping Bogan (YouTube influencer):

“We need them to hear that this is important to us. At the last election, the Greens stole quite a few seats off of Labor. And if they want to do a little bit more of that, then getting support of the vapers is something I'm sure they'll be interested in. So please, guys, this is our last chance…”

JASON:

My guess is that the Greens will end up supporting this legislation with some important amendments and that in return for that, they're going to get a win on some other piece of legislation that they want to amend in a certain way. That's my sense of how the Greens are going to handle this. The Coalition, I think it's going to be quite a difficult debate for the party room. And I genuinely don't know how they're going to come down on this one. I do think it would be very hard for the Coalition to vote against this legislation. But having said that, there are a lot of Coalition MPs and senators who don't want this legislation to become law.

ASHLYNNE:

After the break - who’ll be in charge of enforcing a ban? And who’s going to cop a fine?

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ASHLYNNE:

Jason, given the proliferation of vapes and tobacco shops and corner stores selling vapes, it doesn't sound like this will be the easiest of bans to enforce. So talk to me about the logistics of how they're saying they'll actually do it.

JASON:

We don't actually have the logistical plan yet. And it is going to be incredibly difficult to enforce it, because it's not just a matter of banning vapes and they go away. Firstly, you've got to try to stop vapes getting into the country, and that's almost impossible. If the Australian Border Force wanted to, they could fill whole warehouses full of illegal vapes being imported into the country every month. But they just don't have the policing power to stop all the vapes getting through the border. And while they do have sophisticated detection technology, they just don't have enough to stop vapes coming into the country. And also the question, there's a question as to whether it's worth it because there's other things that are perhaps a more serious threat to society than vapes.

And then because there's so many shops and convenience stores that are selling vapes, it's going to be very difficult to suddenly go around to each store and police whether they are selling vapes over the counter or under the counter. It's become so much a part of daily life. It's going to be very difficult to stamp it out.

You know the big stick here is the fines and you know possible prison sentences that will apply to people who are selling the vapes on a commercial level, a commercial quantity. So it wouldn't be somebody who gives you 1 or 2 vapes, it would be that convenience store that is selling vapes on a regular basis or someone that's organising or facilitating the importation of a vapes, to sell online, etc. That's who will be targeted by this new law. Exactly how they are going to do that though, it's not yet clear.

ASHLYNNE:

It's been more than a year now since Mark Butler first spoke about banning vapes. Why is it taking both so long? And also, you know, why now? Why is there this rush to push it in through the Senate before the winter break?

JASON:

I think the government wants to have a legislative victory before the winter break. It's another. It's something else that they can sell to voters is look, we're taking action. We’re moving to fix something that, you know, a lot of people are concerned about. And I think the government is under a lot of pressure from the Australian Medical Association and various other leading health groups. They went to see the new health minister, Mark Butler, and urged him to try to do everything he could to stamp out the growth of vaping as a habit.

ASHLYNNE:

It's interesting talking to you about the internal machinations of the coalition and the Greens around this. What does it tell you about how these types of issues percolate internally?

JASON:

I think this is one of those issues where, you know, it completely crosses the traditional kind of party divides. And, people across the parliament, no matter which party they're in, have very different views about this. And that is what is going to make it so difficult to resolve.

One thing that really did surprise me, when I started doing this story was the number of submissions that I read, you know, argued passionately in favour of making vapes available just as cigarettes are available.

You know, one of the most interesting and quite valid was from Fiona Patten, the former, you know, Victorian upper house MP. She made an argument that vapes had really helped her finally quit smoking and that by banning vapes we're doing her and, you know, many others like her, she argued as a real kind of disservice. And forcing her to go to a GP is just not going to work. It's not going to work for, you know, all those other people that are using vapes as a substitute for smoking. So that really struck me just how complex this issue is. At first I had thought, well, you know, vaping is an evil that we must stamp out, but I think it is more complex than that.

ASHLYNNE:

There’s essentially two stories in one, like you’ve got people Fiona Patten and people like that who use it to stop smoking. And then you've got teenagers and they can't vote, but their parents vote and their parents are mad.

JASON:

Yeah, well, that's exactly right. And I think what Mark Butler is saying is we don't want teenagers taking up vaping and becoming addicted to something new for the rest of their lives, something that's not good for them. We know that vaping does damage. When you read some of the chemicals that are contained in vapes, they can't be good for you. So what he's arguing is we've got to do something to create a whole new health problem for our country 10, 20, 30 years down the track. And that the only way that we can stamp is through tough legislative action.

I think there's no easy way to regulate vapes because this issue crosses all party lines. And there's no kind of coherent ideology here which says that it's a good or bad thing to vape. A lot of different groups of people have completely different views about vaping.

ASHLYNNE:

Jason, thanks so much for your time today.

JASON:

Ashlynne, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me on 7am.

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ASHLYNNE:

Also in the news today,

Greens Leader Adam Bandt is threatening legal action against the attorney-general over comments Bandt claims were defamatory to him and the Greens party.

Both the government and opposition joined together in the house of representatives to accuse the greens of inciting pro-Palestinian protestors that have targeted the offices of some politicians.

But in comments made outside of parliamentary privilege, attorney general Mark Dreyfus claimed the Greens have “been encouraging criminal damage of MPs electorate offices”.

And

NSW premier Chris Minns has formally apologised on behalf of the government to people convicted of homosexual acts, 40 years after the state decriminalised homosexual activity.

New South Wales is the last state to issue an apology.

7am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Cheyne Anderson and Zoltan Fesco.

Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio. Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Mixing by Travis Evans and Atticus Bastow.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

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