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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

The ABC has started the year fighting off accusations of racism, unlawful dismissal and a failure to protect journalists from outside attacks.

The case of Antoinette Lattouf’s sacking - a description which the ABC denies, has ignited a debate about the broadcaster’s editorial policies, its coverage of the war in the Middle East, and its vulnerability to external lobbying and pressures.

So, are the policies, the reporters, or the leaders to blame for the ABC’s problems?

Today, associate editor of The Saturday Paper, Martin Mckenzie Murray, on the generational divide emerging at the national broadcaster.

It’s Thursday, February 1.

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ANGE:

Marty, a few weeks ago, we ran an episode on 7am about the ABC, basically looking at how an internal restructure has been causing huge issues among staff. It turns out that was just the start of the ABC becoming kind of a news headline itself. What happened last week?

MARTIN:

Last week, in kind of rapid succession, we had a quite comprehensive vote of no confidence amongst union members of the ABC, expressing no confidence in their managing director, David Anderson, regarding how the ABC had dealt with the dismissal of Antoinette Lattouf, a presenter who said she was unlawfully dismissed in December.

Audio excerpt – News Reporter:

“Staff air their grievances over the broadcaster's coverage of the Israel-hamas war and sacking of journalist Antoinette Lattouf.”

MARTIN:

Subsequent to that, quite quickly, an emergency board meeting was summoned, which kind of voted precisely the opposite way.

And vested full confidence in their managing director. And following that, Ita Buttrose described as abhorrent the suggestion that the board might have been, improperly influenced by external parties regarding Antoinette Lattouf and said that it was incorrect to suggest that the ABC management was indifferent to the concerns and safety of its staff.

Again, in the same week. This is sort of all in a matter of days. The Prime Minister announces the new chair of the ABC.

Audio excerpt – Anthony Albanese:

“So it gives me great pleasure to introduce Mr. Kim Williams, who we will recommend to the Governor-General to be the next chair of the ABC.”

MARTIN:

And then this week, managing director, David Anderson, for the first time, spoke publicly about all of these in an interview with Radio National.

Audio excerpt – David Anderson:

“I don't think we're led by our staff, but I think our staff are the most important asset of the ABC of our 91 years. Our success has been built by the people that have worked for us, multiple generations of people. So you always listen to staff.”

MARTIN:

And so that was David Anderson after defending his own and the board's integrity, but also trying to assure staff that they are, in fact, listening to them.

ANGE:

Okay. And we'll get to all of those things that happened in close succession in this episode. But let's first look at this story that kind of connects all of these developments, which is the case of Antoinette Lattouf, her departure from the ABC has become massive. Can you explain, first of all, who Antoinette Lattouf is and what she was doing at the ABC?

MARTIN:

Lattouf is a journalist who was casually employed in December for the ABC specifically to host just for five days, morning show on Sydney radio. This isn't a hard hitting news program. There's lots of talk back and you might discuss matters like what mouldy food do you have, in the back of your fridge? In fact, I think Lattouf said one of the topics were favourite Christmas songs that didn't include Michael Bublé.

Before broadcasting on this program, Antoinette Lattouf had been apprised of the ABC social media guidelines. She'd been warned not to post anything that might attract opprobrium, or controversy. Reminded, of course, about the ABC's rather solemn charter that legislatively obliges its staff members to a sense of impartiality.

Three days into this five day contract. Antoinette Lattouf re-posts something from Human Rights Watch on her Instagram page. And this is Human Rights Watch alleging that the Israel Defence Forces were using civilian starvation as an instrument of war. An allegation, in fact, the ABC itself had reported on, the ABC says this was in direct breach of its policy. It was also a wilful breach of the instructions she had personally been given.

And whilst Lattouf said they were commending her after just three of those five days of casual employment, she was told to leave.

What this has triggered and caused incredible pain internally in the ABC is Antoinette Latouf made an application with the Fair Work Commission alleging her unlawful dismissal on the grounds of political expression, and then this was later amended to also include the grounds of racial discrimination.

ANGE:

Right. So Antoinette Lattouf is basically told by the ABC to finish up her very short contract even earlier than previously defined. She takes issue with that decision because she obviously thinks it's unclear about what she did wrong. So she filed this application to the Fair Work Commission. How did the ABC respond to that?

MARTIN:

The ABC always denied, very strongly denied that they are inadequately supportive of staff. They've also always strongly denied that she was unlawfully dismissed, much less on the grounds of racial discrimination.

But one thing that the ABC's defence did alter is their kind of definitional use of the word sacking. Initially they admitted that they had sacked her, but then they later revised their defence, saying that in fact they hadn't sacked, but had rather let her contract expire, they also invoked that they had paid her out for those 5 days.

Josh Bornstein, who I spoke to, who is Lattouf’s lawyer, also told me that mediation had dissolved. It had failed, and that they're now at the point of jurisdictional challenge.

Josh Bornstein is of the position that she very much was sacked and it was unlawful. And their hope is that certain things will be ventilated or that the Fair Work Commission will compel the exposure of internal documentation and compel witnesses to speak about the circumstances around Lattouf's, quote, unquote, sacking.

Crucial to this story is the fact that on Jan 16, the nine years papers published leaked messages that were sent, within a group, calling themselves lawyers for Israel. And this group had viewed Antoinette Lattouf's reputation. So remarks made prior to her employment at the ABC, which they felt revealed her to be unprofessionally biased against Israel, perhaps even contemptuous of Israel. And part of their lobbying efforts were messages to Ita Buttrose, ABC chair, and David Anderson, the managing director, arguing for her dismissal.

So the exposure of these texts and this, this lobbying effort quite seriously aggravated the crisis for the ABC. And the ABC again, in this point says we weren't improperly influenced by this lobbying, but certainly we acknowledged its existence.

I think the interpretation of those texts and what they exposed has aggravated certain schisms. Some of them, I think, are generational within the ABC.

ANGE:

After the break – inside the divisions at the ABC

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ANGE:

Mary, we're talking about the ABC and how the sacking of Antoinette Lattouf has sparked internal tensions among staff about how the organisation handled her termination, but also how the ABC in general deals with complaints, how they protect staff from external attacks and how they support journalists from diverse backgrounds. What have staff been saying about all of those things?

MARTIN:

There's a few things, and this won't be surprising given how large an organisation the ABC is. It's also the country's largest employer of, of journalists. There are disputing interpretations, not just of Lattouf’s case, but of the culture of the ABC and the adequacy of, both the freedoms and protections of journalists. One point that is definitely consistent and universal is that Lattouf's case has been very badly mishandled.

Very senior reporter John Lyons, who spoke at that union meeting, and has now returned to Israel to report upon the Gaza war, said that he was embarrassed and he was certainly of the belief that the lobbying had exercised some influence on ABC management. He said that he was embarrassed to be part of that organisation because of that.

So in that interview this week that David Anderson gave on Radio National, he had to walk a line between defending his own, and the ABC board and management's integrity, as well as acknowledging various grievances amongst ABC staff, at the moment.

Audio excerpt – Patricia Karvelas:

“The staff union voted no confidence in you in the wake of that case. You were then backed by the ABC board. Has public trust in the ABC, though, been damaged by this case?”

Audio excerpt – David Anderson:

“Look, I don't believe so. But I guess time will tell.”

MARTIN:

So he said that he was receptive to grievances or complaints about racism within the ABC, but he also denied or it was his view, he said, that institutional racism is not a problem at the ABC.

Audio excerpt – Patricia Karvelas:

“Is there institutional racism at the ABC?”

Audio excerpt – David Anderson:

“I don't believe so, but it is pretty sad that we still need to be on the lookout for racism. We have zero tolerance…”

MARTIN:

and he was also quite emphatic that the ABC is not, in fact, vulnerable to external lobbying.

Audio excerpt – Patricia Karvelas:

“Here is now criticism that the ABC is vulnerable to outside lobbying and political pressure, particularly from the pro-Israel lobby, is it?”

Audio excerpt – David Anderson:

“I reject that completely. So, look, there is, there is quite coordinated campaigns that come to us on email and you can tell because they're all formatted. And, you know, I've been aware that they are coordinated for some time, and it's not just around, this particular coverage.”

MARTIN:

There are also other questions about social media policy. Well, I spoke with a number of ABC staff and kind of had the impression that there are in fact quite clearly defined guidelines.

Awareness of them or interest in upholding them, however, is debatable. And this is quite a conversation with, with a number of ABC staff that evolutional or devolutional social media. It wasn't all that long ago that there was this outsized and to me, naive optimism about the power of social media.

Former managing director of the ABC, Mark Scott, was really enthusiastic about it, really encouraged staff to use Twitter, saw it as this powerful tool of both sharing and also finding news, of bolstering individual and institutional profiles.

One staff member now kind of only half jokingly said there probably would be few media executives today that wouldn't like to if it were lawful to deny all staff ever from ever again using social media.

And it's true. I think it's brought much more pain and consternation to the reputations of individuals and institutions, than it's done good.

ANGE:

I feel like the is likely not an unanimous view among staff at the ABC about how they should be allowed to use social media and express their opinions, because, I mean, personally, I've seen some ABC staff members, high profile or not, take very different approaches to that policy, especially around this conflict in the Middle East.

Does the ABC need to think about how broad those policies are, and whether it's fair to essentially ban or gag reporters from sharing their own thoughts publicly?

MARTIN:

I think it's a major central point in all of this, and it's something that aggrieves some staff members. This is more likely a view held by older journalists that say, particularly an ABC journalist, does not have the unfettered right to express whatever he or she likes on social media.

And the reason for that is very solemn point, which is the ABC charter. This is a legislative obligation for ABC staff members to operate impartially and to function and behave, work in a certain way so that the public doesn't suspect them of anything else. That's different to how you and I can work Ange, even the obligations under the ABC charter are quite distinctive and powerful, unavoidable.

And some journalists are annoyed at the seeming indifference to the ABC charter when those arguments about being gagged are being made.

ANGE:

So Marty, at the start of this episode, you briefly mentioned that the ABC has this new chair. The Prime Minister announced Kim Williams, the former News Corp boss, will be taking on the role next month. Could new leadership signal a shift here or are some of these issues that we're talking about more fundamental?

MARTIN:

Yeah, it's a good question. A very large and open question. The appointment of Kim Williams is very interesting to me, and all the people I spoke to were quite pleased by it. They saw in Kim a man with a very deep intellect and very thick skin.

As Jonathan Holmes said, there'll be a few very passionate, you know, the most ardent ABC supporters out there. You know, the bogeyman for them has always been Rupert Murdoch. And they will see. And Kim Williams, a man who spent, you know, I think, a good 15 years working for him.

So where he takes the ABC, how he exercises his influence, how likely or heavily it might be exercised, is an open question. I'm very interested in finding out the answer. We won't know for some time.

He'll begin in March. The timing is very interesting. I think the Fair Work Commission hearing of the Lattouf’s case is scheduled for March 8th. And I think Kim Williams's appointment as chair begins on March 6th. So he inherits that he inherits a staff that is experiencing certain ruptures, certain questions of support, certain questions about how journalism should be practised, and relative to the ABC charter.

And he also comes in at a time where the Gaza war has accentuated all of this, like it has sort of magnified passions in a way that the scrutiny which the ABC always receives, it always attracts, the scrutiny has been intensified. So it's a very interesting time that he assumes the chair.

ANGE:

Marty, thanks so much for your time today.

MARTIN:

Thank you.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today,

The federal government will boost the Commonwealth’s share of public school funding from 20% to 22.5% by 2026.

Western Australia is the first state to negotiate a new deal with the Commonwealth, which will mean all of its public schools will be fully funded by the government, to the levels outlined in the Gonski review.

And

Australia’s annual inflation rate has hit a two year low of 4.1 per cent.

The easing of inflation means another interest rate rise next week is less likely, according to economists.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. Thanks so much for listening.

We’ll be back again tomorrow with an episode about threats to democracy around the world in 2024, which has been called the ‘Year of Elections’.

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