RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

The future of Australia’s universities hangs in the balance, with the government’s radical reforms to funding and student fees due to be voted on as early as today.

The reforms have been strongly opposed by students and some universities, but the government has been negotiating furiously behind closed doors to pass its legislation through the Senate.

---

RUBY:

Today - Rick Morton, on Independent Senator Jacqui Lambie’s crucial vote… and whether these reforms are likely to become law.

Archival tape - Reporter:

“In a major overhaul of tertiary education the cost of a humanities degree is set to double…”

Archival tape - Reporter:

“Things like arts, law, commerce will be going up to 14,000 per year …”

Archival tape - Reporter:

“What we’re trying to do is to make sure we get students studying in the areas where we know there will be skill shortages and we know will be jobs in the future.”

RUBY:

Rick, last week you spoke to Tasmanian Senator Jacqui Lambie. What did she say to you about her thoughts on the government's controversial higher education bill?

RICK:

It was a pretty tense morning actually, cos it was thursday morning last week and she was the woman of the hour. Everyone was trying to get in contact with her.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“G’day you’ve reached Jacqui Lambie…”

RICK:

It's a game you often play with political people, but it's...with Jacqui, it's...you always get the sense that she genuinely is just absolutely pressed for time.

Archival tape - Rick Morton phone call:

“Hello Jacqui, how are you?”

Archival tape - Unidentified staffer:

“No no, not Jacqui.”

RICK:

And I was told to call at 9:20am on Thursday morning. Meanwhile, the story is moving. The government's trying to get votes for this bill to pass this incredibly radical overhaul of higher education funding through the Senate.

Archival tape - Rick Morton:

“Hello, how are you?”

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“I’ve been talking to students this morning, they’re soo pissed off with Rufus Black.”

RICK:

She'd been on radio and she'd had meetings that morning with about half a dozen Tasmanian university students.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“So I’d already picked this up over the past 4 weeks, but I had half a dozen of them this morning and they’re just fuming.”

RICK:

And she was incredibly fired up. She was agitated, she was furious, and she'd almost kind of intuited all of their rage and fury.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“You know, and they’re really suffering. I had one of the young ladies break down. You know, this is the sort of crap that’s going on. Then to threaten them with arts degrees. According to the students all Rufus Black wants is a business model, they are so angry.”

RICK:

She told me that the students that she'd met with that morning were really angry at the University of Tasmania's vice chancellor, Rufus Black, who was actually one of the few VCs to support the legislation publicly. And that legislation - this explains some of their anger, at least - would see the cost of some university degrees double for students, while overall Commonwealth funding her place fell.

Black had actually been lobbying Lambie to support the bill, and the government is relying on crossbench senators like her to get it across the line.

RUBY:

So, Rick, Jacqui Lambie, I mean, it sounds like she's extremely passionate about this issue. Was that a surprise to you? And also, I mean, why? Why is she so passionate?

RICK:

This is actually the most fascinating part of the story for me, because Jacqui Lambie never actually went to university, but she says that on most days she wishes that she had.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“You know, I just think it would have actually helped me out, I reckon. But anyway, that's the way life is.”

RICK:

Where she's from in north west Tasmania - she was born there, she was raised there, she still keeps her local office there - it's got the worst higher education attainment rates in the state, which itself is still, according to the last census, the worst performing state for people aged 15 and over who have a bachelor degree. So it's not a particularly well educated part of the country. And because of that, the economic disadvantage in north west Tasmania is deep.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“And I just don't want to stand in any way or put another off school in front of those kids that want to go to university and make it harder for them. I'm just not going to be a part of that.”

RICK:

So she's had a few staffers come through her office and several of them, you know, including a current policy adviser, also grew up in this region and they did it tough on the trek to university. And that has really kind of settled with her. She hasn't been able to get that out of her mind.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“Hearing the same story, they didn't come from wealthy families, how they had to move or move away and how really stuck to the rich kids didn't have to work two jobs and try and do study at the same time. And, you know, in the meantime, they were living on noodles. That's always stuck in my head. That really, really bothers me.”

RICK:

So she's got these deep concerns about equality and access, and when the Senate started debating it, she says the situation exploded.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“I think that was a week before I was supposed to take the vote and then by 2:00 that afternoon. Holy crap. And I thought oh there's obviously a problem with the bill.”

RICK:

And that made her pay a lot more attention.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“When the coalition's trying to slam something down your bloody throat, and you think, oh, okay, that's a problem here. Hello, hello, the bells are going off.”

RUBY:

Mhm. And so when she did start to look more closely at what the bill itself contains, what did she find?

RICK:

She saw something that she thought had been missed by a lot of the commentary and including some of her own peers.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“This system has been put in where you get a 10% reduction. If you pay upfront.”

RICK:

And that is that the students could get an even bigger discount than what is currently on offer if they pay their fees upfront.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“The only people they’re helping there are the rich kids. And that to me is just disgusting.”

RICK:

So she went on a listening tour to hear from students, her students in her state, from the university management, from the academics, the teachers, the lecturers and the tutors. And after weeks of meetings last Wednesday, Lambie articulated this argument against the Coalition's proposed higher education reforms. And it grew, she says, based on this kernel of her own experience.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“I told them every early on what I was doing because we have been talking most days on it and I just said I can't vote for it. I'm sorry...”

RICK:

So her rejection of the draft legislation was a thorough repudiation made through this lens of class and opportunity.

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“Yeah look, this is just another discouragement. This is just another brick put in their way. And I'm not doing that to them. You know, I salute them…”

RICK:

It also shocked a lot of people. There were people out there who had written her off who had assumed that she had stitched up a deal with the coalition. But that was far from the truth. She was actually scathing.

RUBY:

Mhm. And so with Jacqui Lambie now committed to voting against these higher education reforms, what will happen next?

RICK:

The Coalition's last good chance to pass the legislation now rests with South Australian Centre Alliance, Senator Stirling Griff and his lower House colleague, Rebecca Sharkey.

Now, Rebecca Sharkey actually has carriage of education policy for the party, and she’s been handling the negotiations with the federal govt with the vote directly. What the two of them decide to do will have huge ramifications for the future of Australian universities.

RUBY:

We'll be back in a moment.

[ADVERTISEMENT]

RUBY:

Rick, the government’s higher education bill is due to come before the senate, it could even be as early as today. So what is the federal government’s strategy likely to be to try and get it over the line?

RICK:

So we already know One Nation are voting for the bill. Labor and the Greens are obviously opposed, and that means the coalition needs one more vote. So with Lambie out of the picture, Senator Rex Patrick, who used to be with Centre Alliance but is now an independent, he's a firm ‘no.’ Absolutely not changing his mind. That leaves us with Centre Alliance and Stirling Griff.

Now, Stirling Griff has expressed concerns about the low rate of funding growth for all three South Australian universities under the current proposal. But Education Minister Dan Tehan appears to be prepared for this exact roadblock.

RUBY:

So the government is going to try and do a deal to get senator Griff’s vote then?

RICK:

Yes, that's the short way of putting it, because they haven't given up. I mean, Dan Tehan said that he looks forward to working with the crossbench to get the legislation passed. And that was after Lamey came out and said she won't support it. So basically, as the bill currently stands, South Australia's universities are all classified as low growth metropolitan institutions.

And under the bill, they would receive funding increases of only one percent each year. Now, regional universities, by comparison, will receive more than three times that, three and a half percent each and every year over three years. Knowing that that is one of the concerns, it's quite interesting that there was this telling exchange in late September when the committee that was examining the bill heard from the Education Department official, Dom English, and he told them that Minister Tehan had actually been provided with costings for the reforms across a range of different scenarios.

Archival tape - Dom English:

“We have looked at South Australian universities from a number of different angles, against the current model as well as alternatives, but that's all we've done to date”

RICK:

Independent Senator elect Patrick forced English to confirm actually in more detail, even specifically about South Australia, whether the government had looked at the costings on increasing the growth funding for South Australia's universities.

Archival tape - Rex Patrick:

“Have you provided advice to the minister on costings on budget implications for South Australian universities to be placed in the regional categories, such as 3 per cent [sic] instead of 1 per cent?”

RICK:

When he was asked, Dom English replied simply—

Archival tape - Dom English:

“Yes.”

RUBY:

Right. So the government has basically already been looking at ways that it could carve out more money for South Australian universities, which would presumably help them secure the votes of this South Australian senator whose vote it needs to pass its Bill. Surely that would make universities in other states frustrated?

RICK:

You could bet your house on it. So, you know, if they were to classify South Australia's universities as regional in order to win over the Senate alliance, which is not a guarantee, by the way, because it's only one of the concerns that Centre Alliance had, but it is a pretty big one that would have huge consequences for the government.
Most trivially, I guess.

It would mean an additional cost to the budget that it does not want to incur, because you got to remember that this whole package was designed so they didn't spend an extra a single extra cent, not a single extra dollar. But more substantially, though, such a deal would actually outrage other low growth metropolitan universities and especially fellow members of the powerful Group of eight universities, of which University of Adelaide is one.

But the VCs have kind of...they've been a bit lukewarm in their opposition or support of the bill. I mean, Rufus Black e-mailed staff saying that we should support it. But even that was kind of an exercise in some mental gymnastics, because what the universities really want is certainty around funding and the ability to grow domestic student places, certainly next year. But definitely over the next three years and in the next 10 years, which is what this bill does.

I think the VCs have been caught between a rock and a hard place in this sense, because they've got university councils to which they are beholden on the one side, and then their staff.

RUBY:

And so, Rick, it looks like the bill will be debated on and voted on today. So what do you think will happen?

RICK:

Well, look, by the time we actually get through the day, anything could happen because, you know, we have had opponents of the bill express concern that Jacqui Lambie may still be wrangled by the coalition. It's happened before, but she's having none of it in this particular case.

Archival tape - Rick Morton:

“Yeah, so you're done. No...no way they can get you?”

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“Oh no way, mate. When I make statements are that, we're done. You've made up my mind. So the only person left in the vote's like I said is Rebecca Sharkey and Sterling Griff.”

Archival tape - Rick Morton:

“Thank you, Senator.”

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“You're welcome mate. Thanks for the chat.”

Archival tape - Rick Morton:

“No I’ll let you get back to it. Good luck.”

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“Uh yeah, you too.”

Archival tape - Rick Morton:

“Talk soon.”

Archival tape - Jacqui Lambie:

“Nice to chat with you.”

RICK:

Absent any announcement from Centre Alliance, the first clear sign of their vote will likely come this morning based on whether the Bill is actually listed on the order of business by Matthias Cormann the finance minister.
Now, Matthias, I was told by at least one senator, doesn't like to put anything on the order of business if he knows he doesn't have the votes. So if he thinks he's got the votes, then that can pretty much be read as a huge clue that Centre Alliance have supported the legislation. But it is the Senate. It is the Australian parliament. And literally anything can happen.

And certainly that's we've seen; that with Jacqui Lambie, People were...shocked, I think. Hearing from people all week online just going ‘I cannot believe that Jacqui Lambie is now likely the saviour of Australia's university sector.’

RUBY:

Rick, thank you so much for talking to me today.

RICK:

Thanks, Ruby. It's always nice to be with you.

[ADVERTISEMENT]

RUBY:

Also in the news today…

Victoria’s Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton has said it’s a “lineball” as to whether the state will meet the tight rules needed to ease restrictions on October 19.
Sutton’s comments came as nine new cases were recorded on Monday, and a cluster linked to Chadstone shopping centre grew to 24.

And US President Donald Trump briefly left hospital yesterday to drive past supporters in a motorcade. A spokesperson for the White House said the drive was approved by medical staff, but concerns have been raised about the wellbeing and safety of the driver and Secret Service staff accompanying the President.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am, see you tomorrow for a special Federal Budget episode of the show.