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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

The International Criminal Court in The Hague looks at some of the gravest war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Now, Senator Jacqui Lambie, is referring senior commanders of the Australian Defence Force for investigation.

She says the Brereton report, which found 39 alleged murders of civilians and prisoners involving the Australian Special Forces in Afghanistan, let senior commanders off the hook.

Today, Senator Jacqui Lambie, on why her experience as a veteran convinced her to make a referral to The Hague.

It’s Wednesday, July 19.

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ANGE:

Senator Lambie, take me back to 2020. So, the Brereton report has just been handed down. In that moment, reading that on that day, tell me, what are you thinking?

JACQUI:

For me, my first point of call is the welfare of the soldiers involved, obviously, most of them from the West, and them and their families and what they were going through. And the other thing was, once again, because we already knew this was going to happen, that they'd throw the diggers under the bus and senior command would be left standing, standing strong like they've got nothing to do with this. Obviously no leadership qualities, but happy to shove our diggers under the bus. And that's exactly what they've done to cover their own arse. And there's no other polite way of putting that.

ANGE:

Let's talk, Senator, about the accountability from that report. How do you feel the report has or hasn't held senior commanders to account? You've just spoken about it briefly there. But what do you think is lacking, about the accountability from that report?

JACQUI:

Well, I think from that report, what was made quite clear, that one of the key recommendations from the alleged war crimes inquiry was not to look at senior commanders.

Archival tape – Speaker:

“Are you speaking to that, Senator Lambie?”

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“I am, Madam President.

Yesterday I called on the Government to acknowledge and take responsibility for the shocking lack of accountability at the top of our Defence Force.”

JACQUI:

And that's why we send them to the International Criminal Court under Article 15, because that's exactly, exactly what is going on here. They are not looking at senior command, that's been made very, very clear. And I still do not believe that they will continue to look at senior command. And that's where the biggest issue is coming from.

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“Like the Chief of the Defence Force and the top brass, the government is, no doubt, hoping this will all just go away. They’re hoping that Australians will forget that when alleged war crimes in Afghanistan were investigated, our senior commanders got a free pass while our diggers were thrown under the bus. Well, we don't forget. I won’t forget.”

JACQUI:

And I can tell you that evidence from multiple sources, independent of the war crimes inquiry or the Brereton inquiry, including witness testimony before a civil defamation trial that we've been watching, said, and I quote, the leadership knew this went beyond patrols, this went up the chain, end quote.

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“There is a culture of cover up at the highest levels of the Australian Defence Force. It is the ultimate boys club. Well, today I say enough. Enough is enough.”

JACQUI:

I can assure you, from someone who has served, when you have things like this going on in your unit, you know, it goes all the way to the top of the command. So don't tell me they didn't know because that's just rubbish. They knew something. And they’re just all sitting there, we didn't know anything. Well if you didn't know anything, you shouldn’t have been bloody leading in the first place.

ANGE:

And can you talk to me more about that evidence that you just mentioned? What evidence do you have there beyond, you know, your inkling of the culture of senior management? What evidence do you have of the cover up?

JACQUI:

Well, you know, when you, when you're out there and you're talking, you're talking to these soldiers and their families and things like that, and you're hearing, and I get that for pretty much firsthand, you know. You know. From somebody who has served, you know, that commanding officers know when something big happens, it goes all the way to that chain of command. I'm sorry, but that is how it works. That is the reality of defence. Some of these sources confirm that the leadership knew about this for years and years and years. And did nothing and said nothing.

ANGE:

Are those sources strong enough for the ICC to pursue that complaint? Because it's one thing, you know, saying the culture of the command and what they obviously knew, but is there enough evidence to actually establish that?

JACQUI:

Well, they only need the evidence to say that, guess what? The state, which is Australia, as they use it, has not investigated high command. Full stop. They have not done their due diligence. They've done 50% of an investigation and left the top senior commanders off the list. That is evidential.

ANGE:

And Senator, putting the senior command to one side for a moment, we’ll get more into it. But prosecuting these allegations of war crimes still means going after some of the frontline soldiers themselves, if they've committed these acts. Do you accept that they still need to be pursued? Is it really throwing them under the bus when there's really serious allegations here?

JACQUI:

You know, all crimes need to be investigated. And the only way you can investigate a crime is when you have all the evidence on the table and the evidence includes those senior commanders. Otherwise, you're not doing an evidence package at all, let alone are you doing a report, about what is going on that is evidential. So when you've got 50% of that evidence on the table and you're not using other 50%, then this is a bloody joke. This is what this is. So not only have they shamed Australian, by the way they are doing this, they’ve made the nation look weak. So that's exactly what they've done. Both Defence ministers from the Liberal Party, over the last nine years, and also Richard Marles, absolutely refuses to look into this and this is absolutely ridiculous. And I can tell you now, the Brereton report also slammed commanders for not being curious enough. And senior commanders do need to be investigated. They need to be investigated. That's it. Full stop. Otherwise you’re just making a joke of an investigation. So since Australia won't do that job properly, both major parties. That is why myself, Dr. Kay Danes, Greg Isolani and Glenn Kolomeitz, have sent them to the International Criminal Court under Article 15. If you don't want to do the job here properly in this country, then I'll make sure it's done properly elsewhere. And they better be bloody listening to me very carefully, because I'm not going anywhere. And you are not throwing diggers under the bus. If there are serious allegations of war crimes going on, you are part of the problem.

ANGE:

But, Senator, to the point of the ICC investigation, there's some questions around how quickly, or if ever, they will actually pursue that complaint because of the sheer number of cases around the world that they have to go through. How hopeful are you that the complaint will be seen? On practical terms, it seems unlikely that it will even be looked at.

JACQUI:

Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hold your breath. There's other avenues we can take too. But we'll get on to that in a minute. But the evidence is this. They will come back and say to the Prime Minister or the government of the day. They will simply say, have you investigated senior command? Now, they couldn't seriously, at this point in time, at this point in time, say they've even bothered to look at senior command.

ANGE:

And, Senator, what's the plan B? If the ICC complaint goes nowhere, it sits on the pile. What's the plan B for the short term?

JACQUI:

Oh, sooner or later, you know, you get a lot of privilege sitting up there on that floor. And sooner or later, and I know there's stuff coming, that that high command is not going to look pretty. And I'm expecting them, when it comes to the royal commission of veteran suicides, start lifting their game a little bit. And start calling out those senior commanders today.

Because, quite frankly, they've been way too… compared to what Robo-debt has done and out there and holding people responsible. I am yet to see that as the Royal Commission into veteran suicides. And this is part of their problem.

ANGE:

We’ll be back after the break.

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Archival tape – Speaker:

“So I might just officially just kick off again, if that’s okay General. Sorry, what was the question you were seeking to clarify?”

Archival tape – Angus Campbell:

“Chair, just to clarify the FOI number that Senator Lambie wished to speak to me about.”

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“Information request 548-2223.”

ANGE:

Senator, in May this year, you got to pursue some of the questions you have directly, when you faced off with Defence Chief Angus Campbell at Senate Estimates. Can you tell me a bit about what happened when you came face to face with him?

JACQUI:

Well, I come face to face with Angus Campbell a lot, I can assure you.

Right now, I'm chasing 12 letters and I have a reason for doing that. And if I don't get those 12 letters, I'll see him at the AAT.

Archival tape – Angus Campbell:

“But I am unclear as to which letters you might be referring to.”

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“Oh, CDF. You know exactly which letters I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ones that you wrote, out to certain certain hierarchy out there, asking them to give their, to give their medals back.”

JACQUI:

But I'll keep chasing Angus Campbell. Because as he likes to say, we are sharks that are circling.

Archival tape – Jacqui Lambie:

“I'm going to fight you every single step of the way. It’s even going to get worse for the Senate, when I stop it every hour for two weeks straight, until I get those letters redacted with the names on them. There is absolutely no reason…”

JACQUI:

Well, I'd like to let him know this, that the diggers are coming from all fronts right at him.

They've had a gutful of his leadership and his mates. And if they really give a stuff about national security in this country, then what they’ll do is clear out the top lot of those senior commanders. Because I tell you what, because it's institutionalised, that just carries on. You're never going to break that institutionalisation open, while you've still got senior commanders that have been there for years and years and years. It is time for fresh blood. They've had their opportunity to run a military, and they’ve ran it into the ground. You've got… We've got the worst retention rates we've ever seen in our military and no one's bloody joining. And you wonder why. And while I'm out there harping, and let's be honest, while I’m out there harping and saying, you might want to really consider joining our defence forces. Because right now they're not in good stock. They're not in a good place. That is not helpful. And I won't back off that until they fix senior command.

ANGE:

Senator, to go above senior command. You've talked a bit about politicians and how you think politicians should be held accountable when they send Australians to war. Can you tell me why you think that, and what that practically would look like? Or what you would like to see, in terms of holding politicians to account?

JACQUI:

Well, I think we've had this in the past, when it comes to holding politicians account and for deciding whether or not they go into war, or whether or not they fight. You know, we went into Iraq on very false pretences and nothing was ever done and no no politician was ever held accountable for that, even though they signed up like a deputy sheriff for the US. I mean, I know that we have these counterparts out there, and that's great. And we're close to the US. But I can assure people, and they need to start looking at it this way; the US needs us just as much as we need them. Okay? They need to hold a base down here.

So we are loading up Australians with Marines and doing all that sort of thing. But right now, we're in a world of hurt unless we can start getting people to join our military. And while this is all going on with senior command, and the way they have run our military into the ground, the less likely we are going to get people joining up. And that becomes a national security problem then. And if they haven't worked that out, I suggest the government opens its eyes. The public are sick and tired of politicians making decisions and never being held accountable. I mean, we've been watching Robo-debt. And by God, if that doesn't hold some of them accountable, it should be. And if there's some that need to be accountable coming out of the royal commission for veteran suicide, then it should hold them accountable.

ANGE:

What would that accountability look like though? Because, in the case of Afghanistan, some of those politicians aren’t even in Parliament anymore. So, what would you actually like to see?

JACQUI:

Well, I mean, what do you do with them? Send them to the ICC, send them to the NACC? Do I send them to the NACC, for Brereton to look at? Seriously? That's not going to be an option for me. And I'm not sure anything… I mean, they're discussing now that, you know, when we go into war, from now on, that it should be debated by Parliament. Well, I'm not sure that's the right answer either. Do we have a group of people at a table, an independent group, that decide whether or not we're going into war, instead of having people make decisions that one, have never served in uniform and are too busy getting all flustered over the brass sitting in front of them. But seriously, there needs to be some common sense in the room.

Because to spend 20 years in the Middle East like we did, and then walk out of there, on command to leave, because the US was leaving and then leave that, basically 20 years behind than when we first went in there, is disgraceful. And then to say well that's over and done with. I'm yet to see the Defence Committee run a Senate inquiry on the 20 years we have done in the Middle East and where we went wrong. We never, ever look back at this stuff. And that's what they should be doing, so we don't make the same mistakes again.

ANGE:

And Senator, finally, you are yourself a veteran, obviously, and I want to get you to think back to when you were serving. What would that Jacqui Lambie, back then, have thought about herself one day referring the actions of Australians to the ICC in The Hague? What would she make of that?

JACQUI:

She would have made, and told you, she’d be a career soldier, to be honest with you, she’d have still been in there. I should’ve been running it by now, mate, we wouldn't have all these issues.

I'm not 100% sure, because it is a real boys club in there. It is a bloody boy's club. And I'll tell you what, unless you’re swinging at them, coming from the left and you actually show a bit of intimidation back their way, and you make them a little bit frightened of you as a woman in the army, then you're probably not going to… you're not going to survive those command units. So that's how it goes.

But quite frankly, it is a boys club, still is a boys club. And, you know, a lot of them have now done 40 or 45 years, those senior commanders sitting up there, and their time is up. Times have changed, it’s the 21st century. They're still sitting in the 1970s, think that they can walk all over parliament up here, and cover up everything they can.

It is just a culture of cover up and that is why we're at a Royal Commission into veteran suicides.

ANGE:

Senator Jacqui Lambie, thanks so much for your time.

JACQUI:

Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you very much for having me on.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today…

Victorian premier Daniel Andrews has cancelled the state’s hosting of the 2026 Commonwealth Games.

The premier said $2.6 billion dollars had been budgeted for the games to be hosted across regional Victoria, but when it became clear actual costs could rise to 6 or 7 billion, his government had no choice but to cancel.

And,

The directors of Tesla will return $735 million US dollars to the company to settle claims they overpaid themselves.

The company’s directors are making the move to settle a lawsuit by shareholders that alleged the directors grossly exceeded corporate norms in giving themselves such large compensation packages.

The settlement does not affect the compensation package for CEO Elon Musk, valued at 56 billion US dollars. It is the subject of a separate lawsuit.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. I’ll see you tomorrow.

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