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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

When Behrouz Boochani first wrote about life on Manus Island for The Saturday Paper, in 2016, he described it as an island of the damned.

During the six years he spent there, he wrote articles via WhatAapp, documenting the horrors of his everyday life under Australia’s inhumane offshore detention regime.

Now, Behrouz is free – Australia never accepted him, but four years ago New Zealand did, and that’s where he lives now.

Today, writer and human rights advocate, Behrouz Boochani, on why Australia needs a royal commission into Immigration Detention - and the secrets that would be exposed if we held one.

It’s Friday, December 15.

And a warning, this episode contains discussion of suicide and self-harm.

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ANGE:

Behrouz, Peter Dutton once said that you would never set foot in Australia, but since then you've not only spent time here, but you've travelled to Canberra, you've been inside Parliament House, and recently you were calling for a royal commission into the Australian detention system. You said it was a surreal moment for you. Can you take me back to that day and tell me why it felt surreal?

BEHROUZ:

Generally always is surreal to be in the Parliament because it is a place that at least over the past two decades, that place has done a lot against refugees. And you know, Australia, everyone know that both major parties have been involved in this. So that's why I think any time that I go there I find it surreal because they say that I cannot come to Australia but it's quite paradoxical.

Audio excerpt – Kylea Tink:

“30 years of this regime built on the idea of indefinite and arbitrary detention regardless of where you've come from, your age, your status, has caused immense damage to both our country's reputation and human lives.”

BEHROUZ:

So, recently I visited Canberra, in the Parliament I met with some senators, alongside some other advocates, who actually they started the campaign and they organised it.

Audio excerpt – Kylea Tink:

“It's past time we held ourselves to account and not only reformed our policies, but allowed a royal commission to finally tell the whole story.”

BEHROUZ:

And some other refugees were there, from Nauru, from Manus Island.

Audio excerpt – Behrouz Boochani:

“What we need, the royal commission to investigate these history of this tragedy, and officially acknowledge this tragedy that is important.”

BEHROUZ:

And we just talk about it, why royal commission is important, and why we are calling for a royal commission to be involved in this detention system.

Audio excerpt – Behrouz Boochani:

“Doesn't matter how long this campaign is going on. Doesn't matter how long we should fight for this. But, I want to say that we chase those criminals. I call them criminals because they committed the crime. They violated our human rights, and they created a tragedy.”

BEHROUZ:

I am a person that has been able to write, some other refugees and other people working with refugees, but everyone hasn’t had this chance, or I don’t know, capacity to express themselves to talk about it. So I think royal commission can create a space for these people who have been ignored.

ANGE:

Why do you think we need a royal commission exactly? What questions do you want that process to answer or uncover?

BEHROUZ:

Yeah. You know for people who follow this case, they know that this system are really exposed in many ways. People in Australia have heard about this, it's possible they ignore it, but they hear about it. We know a lot about this system, especially the refugees. We know the level of this tragedy, but still, we don't know a lot.

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“What happens to refugees and asylum seekers at the hands of the Australian government here on the remote pacific island of Nauru has long been a closely guarded secret…”

BEHROUZ:

Especially those people who've been killed under this system. I think we haven't had the independent investigation towards those deaths.

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“23 year old Omid Masoumali set his clothes on fire in the presence of UN refugee officials in Nauru in April 2016. He died in a Brisbane hospital shortly after being medevaced from the island”

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“Faysal Ishak Ahmed collapsed on Manus Island but died in a Brisbane hospital yesterday”

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“The body of 28 year old Hamed Shamshiripour was found on Monday near the island's main town. Police say the death appears to be suicide.

Audio excerpt – Behrouz Boochani:

“Some of the refugees says Hamed died, some of them say he killed himself. Still we don’t know really what’s happened for him”

BEHROUZ:

This tragedy that we are talking about is not recognised officially in this country. So still the major parties deny it. They ignore it and they don't want to talk about it.

So that is, I think for the families, that is really important. Of course it's very painful for them. But when they feel that they’ve been heard by Australian officials, they've been heard by public, I think that is a way to deal with this pain.

And also alongside the human rights issue, which is really important, is the companies, the security companies, the medical companies like IHMS, these companies that have been a part of this system, and they made huge money. I mean, they won big contracts, so we should know about these contracts and we should know about, uh, how they spend this money and about the corruption, about who benefited of these contracts. I think that is really important.

ANGE:

Right, because the contracts that were awarded to run immigration detention, that's all public money that was spent on this. So you’re saying there’s a public interest to know how exactly that was spent and what happened inside that system.

BEHROUZ:

Exactly. Because in Australia it is not only about some companies, it's the detention industry. So in this country an industry has established. That's why I think the royal commission can expose these to the public. We refugees know that. But people don't know it, you know. So that's why I think it's really important.

ANGE:

Yeah, a royal commission would give people a voice, it would be a mission to find out some truths and also possibly have some accountability on governments…

BEHROUZ:

Exactly, yeah exactly.

ANGE:

Would you also hope that a royal commission sparks a bigger cultural conversation in Australia among the public about Australia's hardline immigration policy and the attitudes that we have about refugees in this country?

BEHROUZ:

Definitely. I think calling for a royal commission itself is, I think is important because that already create the conversation. Now that I'm here we are talking about this, you know, so that already created a conversation among people.

But to be honest, I am not really optimistic about human rights issues in this country. I think the big shock for Australian public is not the tragedy itself. It will be about money. The way they spend this money, the level of corruption. What I learn in this country is that people pay attention, or care about money more than human rights. That is my experience.

ANGE:

After the break - the ‘competition of cruelty’ between the major parties in Australia.

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ANGE:

Behrouz, debate around refugees and immigration detention has been in the news recently again in Australia and the style of that debate was at times ugly and quite racist. As someone who was once the sort of subject of this debate, how do you reflect on this same type of discussion flaring up once again over this High Court decision and what followed from that?

BEHROUZ:

Yeah, that I call it the competition of cruelty by these major parties because, because these two main parties in Australia, they always been trying to send a message to Australian people that we are more cruel than another party, you should trust in us, you know.

Audio excerpt – Claire O’Neil:

“What we have here is a full court, High Court, decision that tells us the Australian government cannot detain people on the basis that was occurring before…”

BEHROUZ:

And also it's quite interesting the way that these major parties reacted to the High Court decision. It was quite ridiculous because they did it in a very short time. And the way they did it, just manipulate the rule, manipulate the High Court decision and also undermine the High Court.

Audio excerpt – Claire O’Neil:

“If it were up to me all these people would still be in detention, that is why they were continuing to be detained when the high court made its call. Some of these people have done deplorable, disgusting things, and I do not want these people in our country.”

BEHROUZ:

But, I think the winner of this is someone like Peter Dutton because he has been successful to dominate Labor Party, and also not only the Labor Party dominate the media as well.

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“Well let's look at federal issues, Labor is looking to seize back control of the narrative on migration after the detainee debacle.”

Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“He came across this policy by going across the documents of Peter Dutton.”

BEHROUZ:

So everyone actually followed his thought, everyone being quite passive in front of him.

Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“Peter Dutton is just about the Prime Minister of Australia, in opposition!”

BEHROUZ:

He's been successful to criminalise the narrative of refugees in this country. And unfortunately the media has been using the same language created by someone like Peter Dutton to criminalise the refugees.

Audio excerpt – Peter Dutton:

“And these are people with adverse security assessments. So national security risks, murderers, rapists, paedophiles, as I point out, the most serious of offenders against Australian citizens. Not just that we're talking about the 84 out now and the eight about to be released. We're now talking about a pipeline of 340 people, and potentially more beyond that. Potentially more beyond that.”

BEHROUZ:

And, you know, if you look at the title of the stories about refugees, it's really dangerous because refugees are a big community. They've been a part of this country for decades and they've criminalised this narrative. And the politicians are able to punish refugees.

ANGE:

Why do you think Australia grapples with human rights issues and confronting them, or why is this sense of apathy, as you've kind of described it?

BEHROUZ:

You know, this is a big question. This has a general answer, of course this relates to history of colonialism in this country. The way that there is a pattern of violence in this country that always repeats itself, and always targets different groups of people. And also, is related to the image of refugees, the refugees who've been dehumanised for decades in this country, and also how violence has become normal in this country. They normalise keeping people in indefinite detention. It’s normal to keep people in detention for ten years. And it’s normal to produce violence, damage people and just get away with it. A man says that “we didn’t do it”, or you know, “it’s not our responsibility”. And now we see with refugees who are in Port Moresby.

You know they've been there for ten years, so of course even when people get freedom, get released, I think it will be very difficult for them to recover. I think that is a big concern. But now that I'm talking with you, still 60 people are there. Of course, they are just struggling, they are suffering and Australians say that we are not responsible, but you are responsible.

So generally I think where it's very related to the history of Australia, it can be a recent history as well. That system has has become more sophisticated, more complicated. So is like a machine of violence we have in this country.

ANGE:

Behrouz, thanks so much for your time.

BEHROUZ:

It's my pleasure. Thank you.

ANGE:

Hey, thanks so much Behrouz for actually coming into the studio. I know it’s your first time coming into the building here at Schwartz, it is really great to have you here, especially for our last regular episode of 2023.

BEHROUZ:

Thank you very much. I just want to acknowledge, it’s a kind of acknowledgement for me, I remember one of the first articles that I published under my real name, I think it was in 2016 or 15, but I published in The Saturday Paper with the title Life in Manus Prison, that was one of the first articles. But generally I think The Saturday Paper alongside The Guardian and some others, they’ve done a great job in terms of exposing the system.

It’s not only with The Saturday Paper, there are some others places in Australia, but when I visit those places that remind me of a long journey and fight.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today…

Journalist Lisa Wilkinson has told the court in the Bruce Lehrmann defamation trial that her speech at The Logies, before the scheduled criminal trial, did imply she believed Brittany Higgins was telling the truth.

The speech led the judge to delay the trial, but Wilkinson vehemently denied she was motivated by pride and ego in giving the speech.

And…

Kathleen Folbigg, who was released from jail earlier this year after an inquiry found new evidence showing she did not murder her four young children, has had another victory in the effort to clear her name.

Yesterday, The New South Wales court of criminal appeal found Folbigg’s convictions should be overturned. After the decision, her lawyer said Folbigg will seek compensation for the 20 years she spent in prison.

7am is a daily show from The Monthly and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Zoltan Fecso and Cheyne Anderson.

Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Mixing by Andy Elston, Travis Evans, and Atticus Bastow.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

I’m Ange McCormack, and this was our last regular episode of 2023, so from all of us at the team, thank you so much for listening this year. It’s really a pleasure and a privilege to make this show for you every day. Over summer, we’ll be sharing our favourite episodes of the year, with new introductions and reflections on how they were made, as well as our favourite episodes of The Weekend Read and Read This.

I’ll be back with you on 7am from January 15. See you then.

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