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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

When Penny Wong gave a keynote speech at a conference on foreign affairs this week, she could have done what politicians usually do at these kind of events.

She could have delivered a very boring speech about the same challenges we all know Australia faces in its region.

Instead, she decided to float the idea that Australia should recognise an independent Palestinian state.

Today, columnist for The Saturday Paper Paul Bongiorno, on what recognising a Palestinian state would mean, and why the Foreign Minister decided to talk about it now.

It’s Friday, April 12.

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ANGE:

Paul, Penny Wong signalled the government could make a change to its policy on the Israel Palestine issue this week. What did she say?

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“Thank you very much, Rory, for your introduction.”

PAUL:

Well Ange, this all happened on Tuesday night at the Australian National University, where Penny Wong gave a keynote address to a roomful of diplomats and intelligence professionals and journalists.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“Tonight, I want to take account of these first two years, where we started and where we are now. But mostly, I'd like to give you my perspective on the challenges we face and what it will take to secure our future.”

PAUL:

At the event, she suggested that Australia could recognise a Palestinian state ahead of Israel agreeing to it.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“We are now 30 years on from the Oslo Accords. 30 years on from the accords that put Palestinian statehood at the end of a process, and the failure of this approach by all parties over decades, as well as the Netanyahu government's refusal to even engage on the question of a Palestinian state, have caused widespread frustration.”

PAUL:

Now, Australia's official position has always been in favour of a two state solution: an independent Israel and an independent Palestine, within secure borders and at peace with one another. And, most countries in the international community, well, they share this ambition.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“Recognising a Palestinian state, one that can only exist side by side with a secure Israel, doesn't just offer the Palestinian people an opportunity to realise their aspirations, it also strengthens the forces for peace and it undermines extremism.”

PAUL:

But the Foreign Minister made the argument that going ahead with recognising a Palestinian state could be the best way to improve peace and security, and that doing so could actually weaken Hamas by marginalising them and offering a meaningful alternative end to the intractable occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

She also made the case it would be best for Israel's security, because many of Israel's neighbours, like Saudi Arabia, have said they would never normalise relations with Israel until a Palestinian state existed.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“Now, there are those who always claim recognition is rewarding an enemy. This is wrong. First, because Israel's own security depends on a two state solution.”

PAUL:

And she pointed to the UK as another country that has openly talked about this possibility.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“As British Foreign Secretary Cameron has said, the UK will look at the issue of recognising a Palestinian state, including at the United Nations. He said this could make the two state solution irreversible.”

PAUL:

Wong put no timeline on this, didn't commit to Australia doing it now, but even flying this kite, well, it's created a firestorm, with the opposition and big whacks of the Jewish community condemning her for even raising this at this time.

ANGE:

Right Paul, why is this such a significant shift in policy from the Australian government? And what would it actually, you know, practically mean for Australia to recognise a Palestinian state?

PAUL:

Yeah Ange, on the surface it may seem obvious. Australia supports a two state solution, it's just natural that eventually that means recognising a Palestinian state. You know, Wong, though, was very cautious in her language. She would know in the diplomatic world she was dropping a bombshell. But what Wong is suggesting, Australia and other supporters of Israel, like the United Kingdom, could recognise a Palestinian state before a final settlement in a peace process with Israel. Right now, the Palestinians don't have the formal diplomatic status or recognition of statehood. There's no officially recognised embassy or consulate, and their position at the United Nations is as a non-member observer, which doesn't get a vote. If Australia actually formally adopted this position, then we would be adding our weight to changing that and in fact, we would be joining 139 other countries who have already done it. Liberal Senator James Patterson said the proposal to forge ahead with such recognition without Israel's agreement amounted to selling out the Jewish state.

Audio excerpt – James Patterson:

“I think it sends the opposite signal, which is that no matter how bad the conduct of Hamas or Fatah or any of the Palestinian factions are, you can still get international recognition from Western democracies.”

PAUL:

And shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Birmingham said, it's downright dangerous to reward such barbaric conduct with a fast track to recognition of statehood.

Audio excerpt – Simon Birmingham:

“What Penny Wong seems to have talked about overnight is some type of fast tracked two state solution, and that's a really disturbing and potentially dangerous thing to be doing, given it comes in the context of the terrorist attacks that Hamas undertook six months ago.”

PAUL:

Penny Wong has spent much of the week fending off criticisms from bodies like the Zionist Federation of Australia. Well, she responded to their criticisms in an interview with ABC's Sally Sara this week.

Audio excerpt – Sally Sara:

“The Zionist Federation of Australia president, Jeremy Leibler, is quoted in The Australian newspaper saying that recognising Palestinian statehood so soon after the October 7th terrorist attacks would be a reward for those attacks. How do you respond to those kinds of concerns?”

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“Well, I'd make two points...”

PAUL:

The point she was making was that waiting for a resolution to a formal settlement between Israel and the Palestinians would seem preferable.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“I don't see, ultimately, any security for Israel without the issue of Palestinian statehood being resolved.”

PAUL:

But the reality is that the peace process has been non-existent since the year 2000.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“We need to see a revitalised Palestinian Authority, we need to see an immediate humanitarian cease fire, we need all of these things, immediately. But the point I'm making is that ultimately, peace, security for Israel, will only be achieved if we have a Palestinian state alongside the Israeli side.”

PAUL:

And the international community pushing ahead with recognition could be a powerful reset towards the peace process. But, Penny Wong was very clear that at this point, it's not Australian policy, and she simply thinks it's a conversation we need to have.

ANGE:

So then, Paul, if this is only an idea, why is Penny Wong floating it publicly now when it is so controversial? You mentioned before, you know, obviously words matter in diplomacy, so what is Penny Wong's motivation here?

PAUL:

Well, that's a big question, Ange.

This comes only about a week after the killing of Australian aid workers Zomi Frankcom and other aid workers in Gaza. The government has appointed a special adviser to report on Israel's investigation into that attack, and to report back on the appropriateness and transparency of the Israeli investigation. But there were reports this week that Israel may not allow Australia to have access to their investigation. And this move by Wong, well, it could be seen in the context of the government trying to put pressure on Israel and reminded that even between friends and allies, Australia can make diplomatic moves that Jerusalem isn't comfortable with. But Ange, there is potentially another major factor here. And that's the possibility this change in language is not so much aimed at diplomats, politicians or the media. But that Penny Wong is trying to speak to sentiment in the community, specifically the sections of the community that see the war as a key voting issue for them. And it's interesting that in her speech at the ANU, which was about foreign policy, Penny Wong saved some of her harshest criticism for a domestic political rival, the Greens.

ANGE:

We'll be back after this.

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ANGE:

Paul, Penny Wong has signalled this shift in thinking around Israel and the recognition of a Palestinian state. But when making that speech, what kind of eye did she have on domestic politics?

PAUL:

Well, yes, she took aim at Peter Dutton, saying that he reflexively dismisses concern for Palestinians as Hamas-sympathising. But Ange, she made an even bigger point of criticising the Greens, referring to them as the Greens political party, a phrase Labor increasingly used as, something of a pejorative to remind people that the Greens are more than just tree huggers. Penny Wong said they are amplifying disinformation, exploiting distress in a blatant political and cynical play for votes with no regard for the social disharmony they are fuelling.

Audio excerpt – Penny Wong:

“I think the way in which, particularly, for example, the Greens have used people's distress, you know, to campaign for votes, has been appalling. And it is, there are consequences to that sort of behaviour.”

PAUL:

Since the outbreak of the war in Gaza, the Greens have been the most stridently critical of Israel, of any of our political parties. And this is resonating particularly well amongst Middle Eastern communities in the country. Greens justice and defence spokesman David Shoebridge, well, he was indignant. He said rather than attack his party and its long standing commitment to Palestine and international human rights law, quote, the Albanese Labor government would be better spent stopping the two way military trade between Australia and Israel. He said that would be an actual peace initiative. But the government insists it has not exported weapons to Israel since the beginning of the Gaza war. Senate estimates were told in October none of the export permits issued since related to lethal equipment. However, a senior public servant, Hugh Jeffrey, admitted we did supply components for the F-35 fighter jet, but that isn't considered a weapon, as it is the whole system. And here he said, this was a definition that we use because we're being guided by the United Nations. And you can make of that what you will, Ange.

ANGE:

And Paul, you mentioned there that Penny Wong is accusing the Greens of leveraging this war as a play for votes. What does she mean by that? How are we seeing the war in Gaza become significant when it comes to the next election?

PAUL:

Well, the politicians won’t exactly admit it, but they're doing this by eyeing off individual seats that are connected to the conflict in some way, seats with large Jewish populations, for example, or seats with ethnic links to Gaza. For the liberals, Higgins and Macnamara in Melbourne, and Wentworth in Sydney are in their sights. These are electorates with a high proportion of Jewish voters, and for the Greens at seats like Calwell and Wills in Melbourne, and one figure at the centre of this electoral contest is Peter Khalil in Wills in Melbourne's inner north, and he's typical of the Labor MPs under pressure over this. The Greens have announced a star candidate, their Victorian leader, Samantha Ratnam, will quit state parliament to run against Kalil. Now Kalil comes from Egyptian heritage, he's the son of migrants, and told me this week he rejected criticism of Labor's position on the war, saying the government had got it right and pointed to increasing aid to Palestinians in Gaza. But his electoral office is frequently targeted with graffiti, and there are clearly some in his seat who don't agree with the government's position. So his electorate is one of many that we'll have our eyes on in the lead up to the next election.

ANGE:

So finally, Paul, I'm wondering if we are at a turning point here, both in how Australians view this conflict, but also in how invested we are in our political leaders' response to it. How critical will this issue be for the rest of the year, do you think, and in the run up to the election?

PAUL:

Well, I agree with you. It is a turning point and I think the government thinks it is as well. The killings of the aid workers from the World Central Kitchen charity really resonated among Australians, and it brought the brutal reality of this conflict home. Even though there've been tens of thousands of killings of civilians in Gaza before that event. But the election, as always, will go to who a majority of voters believe will best serve their interest in making ends meet, educating their kids, finding and keeping jobs, and staying healthy. No one, Ange, can afford to ignore what we might call the kitchen table economy. Albanese will no doubt be hoping voters the Greens are targeting will finally notice that he's no apologist for Israel's response, even though he, like Foreign Minister Wong, also insists the Jewish state has a right to defend itself and the hostages that Hamas has should be released.

ANGE:

Paul, thanks so much for speaking with me today.

PAUL:

Thank you Ange. Bye.

ANGE:

And before we get to today’s headlines, I wanted to share an announcement. Next week, we have a special series on 7am.
Over five episodes you’ll be hearing 'The Great Housing Disaster', which is our special series on the housing crisis in Australia. You can listen to the first episode on Monday, here on 7am.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today...

The Prime Minister Anthony Albanese says he is “increasingly optimistic” about Julian Assange being freed.

Albanese said US President Joe Biden’s comment this week that his administration was “considering” dropping charges against Assange was promising.

And,

One of the biggest seizures of pharmaceutical drugs has taken place in Western Sydney, with NSW police charging a man with possession of over 700 Kilograms of the prescription drug, Xanax.

7am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Zoltan Fecso and Cheyne Anderson.

Our senior producer is Chris Dengate. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Mixing by Andy Elston, Travis Evans, and Atticus Bastow.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back on Monday with The Great Housing Disaster.

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