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From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

As Russian forces have withdrawn from around Kyiv (Keeeev), Ukrainians have found shocking scenes of civilians executed and evidence of war crimes.

But Russia isn’t leaving these towns to give up on its war in Ukraine.

According to Western intelligence officials, Russia’s military is repositioning – to launch a renewed offensive in the East and the South of the country.

Today, world editor for The Saturday Paper Jonathan Pearlman, on the race to gather evidence of war crimes and Vladimir Putin’s new plan to win the war in Ukraine.

It’s Thursday, April 14

And a warning, this episode contains details of alleged war crimes.

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RUBY:

Jonathan, in recent days, Russian forces have been withdrawing from parts of Ukraine, and as that's been happening, civilians and journalists as well have been returning to those areas that the Russians are departing. So what are they finding?

JONATHAN:

Yeah, that's right, Ruby.

So until now, we've had sort of a smattering of reports coming out of Ukraine, mainly from witnesses and people who fled, as well as just sort of a handful of journalists who've made it to the war zones. But now the Russians have pulled back from certain areas, particularly around Kiev. We're getting much more detailed reports as the residents, but particularly international media goes into these areas and the reports that have come out have really been horrific.

You know, and all of this is apart from the ongoing destruction that is happening in Ukraine as the fighting continues. But what we've learnt is that in the areas that have been occupied, really, there are accounts of terrible atrocities occurring and some of the worst have been in the town of Buka, which is outside Kiev. And there have been really disturbing reports from there of killings of civilians and rapes, which has prompted an international outcry.

RUBY:

Can we talk some more about Bucha, then Jonathan? Could you tell me what it was like in Butcher before the invasion and what we're hearing now about what's happened to civilians since the war began?

JONATHAN:

Yes, so Bucha is a town just on the outskirts of Kiev. It's really become a suburb now as Kiev has grown. It's a leafy sort of area and now has modern shopping malls and apartment buildings. It sits alongside a river. It's usually a fairly quiet sort of suburb from which people can make their way by train to work in Kiev. But this town fell in the path of the Russian troops as they were advancing on the capital.

Archival Tape -- News:

“The more you talk to people in Bucha, the more you learn of the terror that this town lived.”

JONATHAN:

and the Russian troops came in and occupied and held the town for several weeks. And what we've learnt is that the residents there were really subject to horrific crimes.

Archival Tape -- News:

“Is this evidence that could amount to war crimes? Several bodies litter the streets.”

JONATHAN:

There were scenes like this across the town

Archival Tape -- Ukrainian:

“The cities that have been liberated are scenes from horror movies, post apocalyptic scenes, among the victims of the russian crimes are raped women who they tried to burn murdered government officials, murdered children, murdered elderly murdered men many of whom had their hands tied….”

JONATHAN:

There was a report of a house where just outside in the front yard, three bodies were found, just three men of various ages, you know, just wearing civilian clothes, jeans and jackets.

Archival Tape -- News:

“The bodies of civilians left decomposing where they fell.”

JONATHAN:

One of the men had stayed behind in the town to look after his dogs and his body was found, and nearby him were his two dogs, which had been shot.

Archival Tape -- Ukrainian:

“You saw this picture, you saw these videos and we see that Russian and Russian army, they are not human.”

JONATHAN:

The reporters who've gone in and found mass graves in town.

Archival Tape -- News:

“Also what could be evidence of a mass grave, survivors struggle to make sense of what they’ve just escaped…”

JONATHAN:

There was a basement in which 25 girls and women aged 14 to 24 were raped.

And Ukraine's prosecutor general now says she's investigating 500 war crimes, which occurred in Buka and other areas across Ukraine.

Archival Tape -- Iryna Venediktova:

“we have five hundred suspects. It's a case about aggression, aggression, crime, aggression, Russian Federation against Ukraine.”

JONATHAN:

And you know, a lot of this looks like, you know, if the reports are accurate, that there was really a systematic attempt by Russian forces to to terrorise civilian residents across Ukraine.

Archival Tape -- Iryna Venediktova:

“And these 500 suspects it is a top militarist, top politicians, top propaganda agents of Russia Federation who who have done everything to started this war and they continue this war in Ukraine.”

RUBY:

Mm hmm. And Jonathan, the reason that we're finding out about a lot of these atrocities now, it's because these Russian troops are retreating from these parts of Ukraine. So can you tell me about where they're going and and why this retreat is happening now?

JONATHAN:

Yes. So when the Russian forces into Ukraine towards the end of February, they entered on multiple fronts and really, it looks like they thought that they would seize most of the country, including the capital, within about two days. Of course, that hasn't happened. They met intense Ukrainian resistance and got held up with their own problems, supplying their own troops. We've seen some long lines of Russian forces on highways in Ukraine. So that easy victory didn't come to the Russian forces. And now they've embarked on a new strategy, which is to focus on eastern Ukraine.

RUBY:

Mm-Hmm. And given the reports that we've heard, come out of places like Boucher. What do we know about how this new phase of the war in Ukraine might look this new strategy in the East?

JONATHAN:

So the Russians have had some success in the south of the country. They've taken parts of territory just above Crimea, which they also seised in 2014. And it looks like what they want to do is connect this southern part of Ukraine to the eastern part of Ukraine and effectively slice out a part of the country.

As part of this, the Russians have now appointed a new military commander. His name is Alexander DeVaughn

Archival Tape -- NBC:

“With the targeting of Ukrainian civilians, is only expected to get worse now that this man, General Alexander DeVaughn, knock-Off, is Russia's new ground commander in Ukraine..”

JONATHAN:

He oversaw campaigns in Syria. He also has experience in the eastern Donbass region.

Archival Tape -- NBC:

“The 60 year old DeVaughn brings a fearsome reputation honed in the second Cheynan war and Syria.”

JONATHAN:

And I think his appointment really reflects a realisation by Russia that the war has been disjointed and that they need an overall commander who's going to try to lead this new campaign in the East.

Archival Tape -- NBC:

“He is the goon called in by Vladimir Putin to flatten cities like Aleppo and Syria he is the worst of the worst.”

JONATHAN:

Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky has warned of a massive offensive over the next week. One top Ukrainian official said that we could see violence and warfare akin to World War Two, and what we're seeing is a move from sort of artillery and rocket attacks to real land based warfare. You know, Ukrainians and Russians are amassing tens of thousands of troops and preparing for an all out land battle.

And so the fear is that this next phase of the war will be significantly more violent, more ferocious than what we've seen so far, and really, in fact, it could be a prolonged battle, but this looks like it is the next and final stage of the war.

RUBY:

We'll be back in a moment.

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RUBY:

Jonathan, Russia is entering the next phase of its war in Ukraine, it's refocusing efforts on the east of the country and as it does that there are these concerns about how intense this warfare could become and the toll on Ukraine. What can we surmise about Russia's end game, though, for the east of Ukraine? How likely is it that Russia would be able to to take and try to keep this region?

JONATHAN:

So this looks like a much more realistic and achievable goal for Moscow.

First of all, the Russians have been supporting the separatists in that region for a long time. They have experience there. Secondly, they're moving away from this sort some disjointed battle on multiple fronts to a much more focussed war.

Some American officials believe that Russia wants to complete its mission in eastern Ukraine by May nine, which is Victory Day that marks the Russian defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945.

But, you know, Ukraine has made it clear that it's going to resist, and it's now sending forces ahead of what's likely to be this this new offensive.

RUBY:

Hmm. And is Ukraine likely to get much help as this pivot happens? What are we hearing from the West, Jonathan, from European leaders, from the US, from NATO? Does it? It seem likely that we will see any further interventions if Putin does try and takeover Ukrainian territory in this way.

JONATHAN:

So NATO's sticking to its line that it is not going to send military into Ukraine or to support a no fly zone. It's not going to engage directly with Russian forces.

Archival Tape -- News:

“The White House says the US will ban new investment in Russia and place further sanctions on its banks and on the families of Kremlin officials”

JONATHAN:

But NATO and the US continues to give strong support to Ukraine.

Archival Tape -- News:

“Boris Johnson says Russia's despicable attacks against innocent civilians are yet more evidence that President Putin and his army are committing war crimes.”

JONATHAN:

Germany and other countries in Europe, which are dependent on Russian oil and gas, continue to look to limit their imports further. Really cripple the Russian economy, which is the ultimate economic motive, would be to stop buying Russian resources.

RUBY:

And you said that there are multiple investigations underway now into potential war crimes that have happened in Ukraine committed by Russian forces. So could you tell me a bit more about how that is likely to unfold? What is the the process here for declaring that that war crimes have been committed?

JONATHAN:

Yes. So so the allegations that have emerged are clearly war crimes.

The European Commission and the UN have sent investigators to Ukraine to assist their local authorities to stop to try to collect evidence and document war crimes.

The issue is going to be documenting them and collecting evidence because to prosecute war crimes, you need the sort of evidence that you need at a court or tribunal.

We've seen repeatedly Russian spokespeople, Russian politicians, diplomats claiming that the evidence that has emerged is fake. So, you know, that is the challenge that these investigators are going to face. I mean, we do live in this era of fake news of easily manipulated images and of public cynicism. So it's crucial, really that investigators try to get in as quickly as possible and try to collect evidence and document the crimes as soon as possible.

RUBY:

And so in terms of accountability for war crimes, though, Jonathan, who can be held responsible, would it be generals? Would it be Vladimir Putin? How does this work?

JONATHAN:

So everyone from soldiers to Vladimir Putin can be held accountable. The difficulty is in bringing people to court. So Russia is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court. It's unlikely that Putin will comply with the court's investigations or would turn himself over to the court. One possibility is that Putin may not be in power anymore and that some, some new regime could hand to hand him over.

What's more likely, though, is that some commanders could be arrested while they're in Ukraine, or commanders or officials could be arrested or detained while they're outside Russia. So the difficulties in bringing them to a court.

Zelensky has asked for a sort of tribunal similar to the Nuremberg trials after World War Two to be set up, and it would be possible for a number of countries to get together and set up a tribunal and try to prosecute war crimes and at least prosecute some of the people who are responsible.

But as we've seen from the war so far, sadly, it looks like the likelihood of further war crimes being committed as the war unfolds is high.

RUBY:

So it sounds like investigations won't really deter Russia at all.

JONATHAN:

It seems unlikely. That's right.

RUBY:

Jonathan, thank you so much for your time.

JONATHAN:

Thanks Ruby

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RUBY:

Also in the news today,

Former federal Coalition MP George Christensen has announced he will run in the Senate as a One Nation candidate.

In a press conference on Wednesday, Christensen said that he had diverged with the views of the Morrison government over a range of issues including vaccine mandates and the push for net zero emissions by 2050.

**

And in his National Press club address, Greens leader Adam Bandt outlined the party's proposed plan to include dental care under Medicare.

Bandt said the plan would entitle everyone on Medicare to receive dentistry and oral surgery and that the policy, costed by the Budget Parliamentary Office would cost $8 billion a year.

I’m Ruby Jones this is 7am see you tomorrow.