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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

Calls are growing louder for a ceasefire, or at least a ‘humanitarian truce’, in the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Israeli troops are still on standby at the border, and the Netanyahu government seems committed to going ahead with military operations.

But with several hostages now free, and hundreds still held by Hamas, can Israel invade without putting their lives at risk?

Today, world editor of The Saturday Paper Jonathan Pearlman on the secretive hostage negotiations, and why Israel’s ground invasion appears to be delayed.

It’s Thursday, October 26th.

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ANGE:

Jonathan So there've been several Israeli hostages released by Hamas over the last few days. What do we know about them and how this has happened?

JONATHAN:

So four hostages have been released so far. And the latest were two Israeli citizens, both were elderly women, one aged 79 and one aged 85. The 85 year old whose name was Yocheved Lifshitz, who was actually apparently a peace activist and had helped Palestinians get medical treatment in Israel from Gaza. She lived just near the border and as she was released, she said to one of her Hamas captors, Salam.

Hamas said that it released them on health grounds and they were released on Monday morning and taken to a hospital in Tel Aviv.

Audio excerpt – Translator of Yocheved Lipschitz:

“Hello, everyone. My name is Yocheved Lipschitz.”

JONATHAN:

And on Tuesday night, Lifshitz, the 85 year old, held a press conference and she spoke calmly. She described the raid on the kibbutz where she lived.

Audio excerpt – Translator of Yocheved Lipschitz:

“Masses stormed our homes, hit people, they kidnapped many, they did not care about kidnapping elderly and children. It was extremely painful.”

JONATHAN:

She then described being taken into Gaza through this incredible network of tunnels, which she compared to a spider's web. She talked about walking for two or 3 hours through these tunnels for kilometres. And eventually she was taken into a room with a small group of other hostages. And she said she was treated with great care in captivity.

Audio excerpt – Translator of Yocheved Lipschitz: :

“When we got there. They told us that they believe in the Koran, and they will do us no harm and give us the same conditions that they have.”

JONATHAN:

Of course, we don't know what condition the other hostages are being held in. We don't know if her treatment and her release was an attempt by Hamas to try to establish some legitimacy or to achieve some sort of public relations victory. But her release comes after two other hostages who were released, an Israeli American mother and daughter, and they were released last Friday. But beyond those four hostages, it's thought that at least 220 hostages are still being held in Gaza by Hamas.

ANGE:

And what do we know about the diplomatic efforts to release the rest of those hostages? Who's actually been involved in the discussions with Hamas?

JONATHAN:

So the negotiations that are going on are secret. What we do know is that Qatar has taken the lead in this. Now, that's no surprise. Qatar has done this before. It has ties to Hamas. But of course it also has close ties to the West. And there's a major U.S. Air Force base in Qatar.

We've heard speculations that there's talk about a release of 50 more hostages, possibly to foreign nationals that have dual citizenship with countries other than Israel.

Hamas has reportedly made several demands for their release. One possibility is that they could be released in return for Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons. Another is that Hamas wants fuel and other supplies to be sent to Gaza. The U.N. is is urging fuel to be to be allowed in. Saying that that hospitals are at risk of being unable to operate imminently.

Israel has so far refused to provide fuel. It claims Hamas has fuel and is hoarding it. Beyond that, aid agencies have only managed to squeeze in a few trucks of aid into southern Gaza via the Egypt border. Israel is keeping its border crossings with Gaza closed. Hamas is also calling on Israel to suspend its airstrikes and the shelling of Gaza, which the Gaza Health Ministry says has killed more than 5000 Palestinians and wounded 14,000 and about 40% of those are believed to be children.

ANGE:

And Israel has also been threatening to send in ground troops to Gaza. And this ground invasion has been reported as being imminent for a while now. How is the hostage situation factoring into that?

JONATHAN:

Yes. So Israel really made two promises about what it intends to do and what its ambitions are for this conflict.

One is to get the hostages back alive and the other is to eliminate Hamas and end Hamas's control in Gaza. And it seems like those two aims are irreconcilable really. Because a military operations and a ground invasion are believed to have almost no chance of getting all the hostages out. Previously, when hostages have been taken into Gaza Israel has been unable to get them out militarily and they've been released through negotiations. So it seems in terms of getting the hostages back, that the only way that is going to happen is through negotiations.

But at the same time, Israel says that it won't hold off on a ground offensive. And while it seems that one of the reasons for the ground invasion not happening so far is because of the talks around the hostages, Israel is saying that it won't hold off on a ground offensive.

And a spokesperson for the Israeli military. Jonathan Conricus was asked about this on the ABC this week. He said that they're going to both dismantle Hamas and bring the hostages home.

Audio excerpt – Jonathan Conricus:

“We are going to dismantle Hamas totally and we are going to bring our people home.”

Audio excerpt – ABC Reporter:

“So you don’t really want to say what’s the priority?”

Audio excerpt – Jonathan Conricus:

“For all the reasons, at this stage of the war, I can only reassure that we are going to dismantle them, reinstate security and bring our people home.”

JONATHAN:

So we don't really know what is going to happen next. Israel seems to be preparing a full ground invasion. But obviously, the blowback from the death of 200 odd hostages could be severe. And in addition, a ground invasion is going to be devastating both in terms of loss of life for the civilians in Gaza, for the infrastructure in Gaza, for the hostages.

The Israeli military would suffer high numbers of casualties. They've so far mobilised over 300,000 reservists. This is the largest ever call up in Israel. These are people who have done two and a half or so years of military service and you know were previously civilians going about their jobs and now they're on the front line waiting to be ordered to go into Gaza.

ANGE:

After the break - how world leaders have been responding to growing calls for a ceasefire.

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ANGE:

Jonathan, we've all been watching as Israel essentially prepares for a full ground invasion of Gaza. Israel has been down this path before though in 2014. How did this kind of assault play out last time?

JONATHAN:

Yes. So 2014 was the last time that we saw Israel mounting a sort of ground operation in Gaza. But it was a much more limited incursion than what we're expecting this time.

Audio excerpt – ABC Reporter:

“The blazing night sky above Gaza was the giveaway after hours of heavy shelling. Confirmation Israel has begun the ground phase of its operations in Gaza.”

JONATHAN:

As with this time, it started with massive air bombardment from Israel before the troops went in.

Audio excerpt – ABC Reporter:

“The Armoured Corps are all being deployed. Another 18,000 reservists are being called up tonight. A total now of more than 60,000.”

JONATHAN:

Palestinians, as with this time, were told to leave the neighbourhood, but many stayed either because Hamas told them to or they had nowhere to evacuate to. And the battles were fought in a jumble of concrete buildings and in narrow alleyways.

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“Thousands of Israeli troops have stormed into Gaza backed by tanks, bulldozers and war planes.”

JONATHAN:

The total war lasted 50 days. More than 2000 Palestinians were killed, including at least 1500 innocent bystanders. And 71 Israelis were killed, including 66 soldiers. And those figures were, you know, related to a much smaller incursion than what we're expecting now.

The objective here will be completely different. The mood in Israel, both amongst the public and the government, is that it does not want Hamas to remain in control in Gaza. And that was not the previous objective. So assuming the ground invasion happens, it's going to be different to what we've seen before. It's probably going to be longer. It's really not clear how it will end.

ANGE:

And considering how much more violence we’re likely to see, and there’s also concerns about how it might spill over into other countries in the region… how have world leaders responded this week while there’s been calls for a ceasefire by the U.N.?

JONATHAN:

Yes. So I think we're seeing a clear shift in tone from world leaders who are increasingly calling for more aid to be allowed into Gaza and for humanitarian truces or even ceasefires to be called. And there’s been a bit of a split between European leaders and the US on this. Joe Biden has said he won't call for a ceasefire this week.

He says we can talk about a ceasefire when the hostages are released and they do and a ceasefire would only play into the hands of Hamas.

But he's also called for more aid to be provided to Gaza.

Audio excerpt – Joe Biden:

“Israel has been badly victimised, but you know the truth is that if they have an opportunity to relieve the suffering of people who have nowhere to go, there are gonna be, it’s what they should do”

JONATHAN:

On the other hand, we saw France calling for a humanitarian truce. And French President Emmanuel Macron visited Israel this week.

He called for a sort of international coalition to fight Hamas along the lines of the international coalition that was gathered to fight against ISIS.

Audio excerpt – Translator of Emmanuel Macron:

“And we did so in Iraq and in Syria, and we will do so again against Hamas.”

JONATHAN:

And he's also calling for a resumption of a genuine peace process and for the creation of a Palestinian state and halting the colonisation of the West Bank.

Audio excerpt – Translator of Emmanuel Macron:

“Regional stability, stability and return to normalisation can only take place if Israel defends its security, fights against violence, but also accepts the legitimate right of Palestinians to have a state.”

JONATHAN:

So we're seeing a shift in tone and that spread to Australia as well. We've seen comments from Penny Wong this week calling for a humanitarian pause to the fighting to allow safe passage for civilians and to allow access for aid. She said that innocent Palestinians should not suffer because of the outrages perpetrated by Hamas. And she has been urging Israeli restraint in its military operations.

More broadly, it's clear that the international community is preparing for huge casualties when a ground invasion begins.

The White House spokesperson on national security, John Kirby, said this week, This is war, it's combat, it's bloody, it's ugly and it's going to be messy.

Audio excerpt – John Kirby:

“And innocent civilians are going to be hurt going forward. I wish I could tell you something different. I wish that that wasn't going to happen. But it is. It is going to happen.”

ANGE:

And Jonathan, if a ground invasion does go ahead, do we have much of a sense of what would happen after that?

JONATHAN:

At this stage we don't. The US is reportedly very concerned about this and has been urging Israel to make plans for what happens in Gaza if Hamas is removed.

Looking forward, it's really not clear what would happen to Gaza, which has a population of more than 2 million people. Israel has not said anything about what the political plan might be. So, really, that is going to be the next question - what could happen in Gaza and who could control it if Hamas's act is eventually removed from power?

ANGE:

Jonathan, thanks so much for your time today.

JONATHAN:

Thanks, Ange.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today…

Israel’s ambassador to Australia has dismissed the need for a humanitarian pause in hostilities, as called for by Australian Foreign Minister Penny Wong.

Speaking at the national press club, ambassador Amir Maimon said he believed the humanitarian situation is fair, citing 30 aid trucks that had been allowed into Gaza in recent days.

U.N. officials say at least 100 trucks a day would be required in Gaza to cover urgent needs.

And…

Western Australia’s Corrective Services Commissioner Mike Reynolds has been stood down, following the state’s first death in youth custody.

Earlier this month, a 16-year-old Indigenous boy took his own life while detained in an adult prison south of Perth; he died last week. Anyone who needs help can call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. We’ll be back again tomorrow.

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