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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones. This is 7am.

The Independent Commission Against Corruption has begun public hearings as part of its investigation into the actions of former NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian.

Over the past couple of weeks the Commission has heard evidence from senior politicians and public servants relating to a series of multi-million dollar grants lobbied for by Daryl Maguire, the former MP who was in a secret relationship with Gladys Berejiklian.

Last week both Maguire and Berejiklian fronted the commission and were asked candid questions about the nature of their relationship, and the process leading up to the grants.

Today - National Correspondent for The Saturday Paper Mike Seccombe, on what happened when Gladys Berejiklian went to ICAC and what the corruption investigation reveals about NSW politics.

It’s Monday, November 1.

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RUBY:

Mike, last month, the former New South Wales Premier Gladys Berejiklian resigned, and that was after it was revealed that the Independent Commission against Corruption would be investigating her conduct. That enquiry is now underway. It started a couple of weeks ago. So can you tell me about what exactly it's investigating?

MIKE:

Well, let's start with what ICAC is not investigating the normal perception of these anti-corruption enquiries that they involve sort of money in brown paper bags, that sort of thing.

But there's no suggestion here that Gladys Berejiklian stood to gain financially from any of the decisions being raked over. Instead, what's being investigated is whether there was a conflict of interest between Berejiklian's public duties first as treasurer and then as premier, and her personal relationship with the former state member for Wagga Wagga, Daryl Maguire.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Mr Maguire, you're aware that this commission is investigating grant funding promised and awarded the Australian Clay Target Association and to the Riverina Conservatorium of Music. Is this right? You're a vociferous advocate for building projects advanced by both of those two organisations."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"I think the term was pain in the arse. Yes."

MIKE:

So ICAC is investigating whether this conflict resulted in a breach of public trust in connexion to the allocation of grant funding for a couple of projects in McGuire's electorate.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"You're prepared to adopt the pain in the arse term, is that right?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes, and vociferous."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"As part of being a pain in the arse. You raise those projects with multiple people within government, including ministers, ministerial advisers and departmental officials. Is that right?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

MIKE:

Specifically, those projects being funding for a shooting range in a conference centre for the Australian Clay Target Association and relocation of the Riverina Conservatorium of Music and the construction of a new recital hall.

RUBY:

OK, so all of this seems to hinge on two things. The first being the personal relationship between Gladys Berejiklian and Daryl Maguire. And the second being how that relationship might have impacted any funding decisions that the New South Wales government made that were in Daryl Maguire's seat. So let's start with their relationship. Can you talk me through what we know about it?

MIKE:

Sure. Well, the relationship was pretty explosively explored in earlier ICAC hearings back in October 2020, when Maguire confirmed it.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Were you in a close personal relationship with Miss Berejiklian?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

MIKE:

Up until then, it had been not known to almost anyone that they were in a relationship.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Are you still in a close personal relationship with Miss Berejiklian?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Not after the events of this. I wouldn't be."

MIKE:

When Berejiklian was questioned about it at the time, she called it a close personal relationship, but she seemed to downplay how serious it was. She sort of indicated she wasn't sure if it would be ongoing, et cetera.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Not even your family knew about it?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"No, I didn't know because I thought to myself if it was, if I thought it was of significance, you know, and it was going to go somewhere. Definitely, I would have."

MIKE:

But last Thursday, we got more information about the nature of the relationship from Maguire when he was called back to ICAC, and Maguire told the enquiry that he loved Berejiklian.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"You loved her?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"So far, as you can ascertain, she loved you as well."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"You had a key to her house."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Well, you contemplated marriage."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"With her?"

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"There was discussion about potentially having a child."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Yes."

MIKE:

So it was pretty extraordinary stuff. You know, seeing a former MP discuss his secret relationship with the former premier in public view.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"It was a relationship I take it that was attended by a level of physical intimacy."

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"Later, yes. Yes, that's correct."

MIKE:

The other thing that was crucial here was the timing. McGuire said that the relationship was ongoing right throughout the period of time that Ike is examining. That is when those crucial funding decisions were made. And furthermore, the relationship continued for up to two years after he quit politics.

RUBY:

OK, so Daryl Maguire confirmed that he was in a relationship with the Premier at the same time that the state government decided to spend millions of dollars on grants in his seat. So what has the enquiry heard then about the decision making process that led up to that money being allocated?

MIKE:

Well, from the evidence that that I has heard a raft of senior bureaucrats and political staffers working for the New South Wales government knew something odd was going on. They didn't know about the close personal relationship, but they knew there was something deeply unusual about this.

Extremely unusual. There was no evidence provided that this was a feasible project.
The very first witness to come up a couple of weeks ago was the director of the New South Wales Office of Sport, Michael Toohey, lifelong public servant. Very good witness, in my view. And he said that he had serious doubts about the business case underpinning the grant replication for $5.5 million from the Clay Target Association. That is, you know, the new gun club, et cetera. He characterised the business case as flimsy and deficient.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"It wasn't a sufficient quality or rigour to support a grant of the many billions of dollars that was being proposed, etc."

Archival tape -- Michael Toohey:

"That was my view, yes."

MIKE:

And Toohey he was absolutely scathing about the application.

Archival tape -- Michael Toohey:

"Why are we pushing an allocation of funds through to a local member based on such scant inadequate information that didn’t meet the New South Wales government's own standards and policies, to someone who was in a personal relationship with the Treasurer. I can't see how that’s anything but a conflict of interest."

MIKE:

He and others in his department, there are long succession who followed him, who testified that they just didn't think the proposal was strong enough to get funding. But nonetheless it did, and the money has been spent.
The enquiry heard evidence from a number of other senior public servants, as well as ministerial staffers.
Former Premier Mike Baird, former Deputy Premier John Barilaro...

Archival tape -- John Barilaro:

"He was a pain in the arse. He was a very, very strong local member and someone that really didn't let go. He was a dog with a bone."

MIKE:

...all attesting to the fact that McGuire was relentless in his pursuit of the grant and of his pet projects in general.
and numerous senior public servants said they believed that Berejiklian was personally pushing these two schemes.
And of course, Berejiklian did not declare any interest at any point or abstained from the cabinet considerations of this project or the other one.

RUBY:

Hmm OK. And so it seems like these decisions were made, Mike, despite the objections of the public servants involved and they were also made while Daryl Maguire and Gladys Berejiklian were in a relationship, and they also all benefited Maguire's electorate. But do we know if Daryl Maguire and Gladys Berejiklian actually worked together explicitly to secure this funding?

MIKE:

Well, that was what the bureaucrats inferred, but they didn't know. And so probably the biggest bombshell of the enquiry so far on Thursday was a number of secretly recorded phone calls between Berejiklian and Maguire.

Archival tape -- Tapped phonecall:

Daryl: you just need to know what, the right things are to throw money in Wagga Wagga
Gladys: I already know, you’ve already told me the three top things…
Daryl: And you need to give them a stadium. Give them a fucking stadium.
Galdys: I’ll do that, I’ll do that too.

MIKE:

And in them, Maguire told Berejiklian he needed money for the conservatorium and for a stadium in Wagga Wagga to turn it into the quote blazing star of the Southern Universe.

Archival tape -- Tapped phonecall:

Gladys: And I’ll throw money at Wagga you just have to do what’s right from your end, otherwise you’ll kill me.
Daryl: no no, that’s alright I’m batting for you.

MIKE:

In another call after he had resigned from Parliament, McGuire told Berejiklian that the way to ensure the government kept his seat in Liberal Party hands at the, you know, obvious by election that had to follow was to quote, Just throw money at Wagga.

Archival tape -- Tapped phonecall:

Gladys: You don't say, I don't want to argue with you, I just need to go and chill because, you’re stressing me out.
Daryl: you go and chill, you just need to know you throw money at Wagga.
Gladys: I’ll throw money at wagga. Don't you worry about that?

MIKE:

So Maguire mentioned his desire for that new stadium and also complained that bureaucracy had rejected it, and Berejiklian's reply was...

Archival tape -- Tapped phonecall:

Gladys: Yes, but I can overrule them.

MIKE:

...yes, but I can overrule them.

RUBY:

We'll be back after this.

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RUBY:

Mike, on Friday, Gladys Berejiklian turned up to Aycock to answer some questions. Let's talk about her evidence. What did she say about her relationship with Daryl Maguire?

MIKE:

Well, she was asked specifically about the evidence that Maguire gave, you know where he said that they were in love and thinking of marriage and children. And I've got to say it was pretty excruciating to watch, you know, basically watching the dissection of the former premier's love life in real time. But as she had previously, she appeared to try to downplay just how serious the relationship was.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"How can you possibly say that the relationship was not of sufficient status to consider making a disclosure with respect to it went on the very same day you were telling Mr Maguire, that he’s your family. Well, that's a turn of phrase, but I did not mean it in the context that I regarded him as family, especially not in relation to the code."

MIKE:

And in the end, she sort of said that she regarded him as part of her quote love circle, unquote.

Archival tape -- Gladys Berejiklian:

"I've often regarded other colleagues or friends as family or brothers. And in fact, I regard my closest friends as family."

MIKE:

What was particularly interesting, though, was that despite all this, when she was asked specifically about whether she would declare her relationship if she had her time again, she was unrepentant.

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"...you did turn your mind to whether you should disclose it at the time."

Archival tape -- Gladys Berejiklian:

"I don't think I did, Commissioner, because..."

Archival tape -- ICAC:

"Never crossed your mind?"

Archival tape -- Gladys Berejiklian:

"No, because I didn't think it was something that I needed to disclose because it was something in my personal life."

MIKE:

But she didn't feel the relationship was at a stage where she would have to introduce it or to declare it when government consideration of, you know, spending was going on.

RUBY:

And so what about the taped phone calls that were played at ICAC? Like those calls that show that she was talking to Daryl Maguire about the grant proposals? And those are the same proposals that are the subject of the investigation.

MIKE:

Yeah, well, that's right. The commission heard excerpts from quite a number of recorded phone calls where Berejiklian and Maguire discussed a number of the funding proposals in the Wagga Wagga electorate, and I might add other deals that Maguire seemed to have in train.

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire

"What about the base hospital? Not the money to that? We're about stop dealing. Oh, it'll be a bad idea. It did not make for guy. You have a team right on hands, said your uncle ..."

MIKE:

In one phone call, Maguire was complaining about the lack of infrastructure funding for the Wagga Wagga Hospital, and he wanted Berejiklian to fix it. He wanted a lot more money for his hospital. Asked her to fix it, and she said she did. She said, I've already got you the Wagga Wagga Hospital. I've just spoken to Dom, meaning Dawn Parity, who was then the treasurer and sorted it out.

Archival tape -- Gladys Berejiklian:

"I'll fix it, then accommodate these people. Honest to crime, I'll fix it."

MIKE:

But despite this evidence, the Berejiklian denied that Maguire had any special access to her compared with other MPs who were lobbying for funding. She said she made herself available to all her MPs, but it's hard to believe that they would all be having conversations like like that one in another phone call. Maguire actually told Berejiklian that he'd been summoned to ICAC.

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"What happened was I've been subpoenaed to go to witek some of the witek, so that's exciting. What? Yeah, oh well, because I introduced that idiot who was to come regarding, right? Is there anything to worry about? No. Oh God."

MIKE:

There was this fascinating, very funny kind of mettam moment where as he was railing against ICAC and how it trapped people, there was this mettam moment where he said...

Archival tape -- Daryl Maguire:

"...it's worse than the Spanish Inquisition. You know that people can't even talk anymore. You know, they could be taping your conversation with you right now. You know, you wouldn't know."

MIKE:

And and in fact, they were.

RUBY:

And what does all of this tell us at a higher level, Mike, what can be gleaned here about the way that political decisions are made, particularly in New South Wales? Because even if we were to accept that Maguire was treated no differently to any other politician, even in that generous rating, it still seems like we're looking at a fairly cavalier way to treat the spending of public money.

MIKE:

Well, it absolutely does. It shows a system of patronage and self-interest where personal relationships and particularly electoral imperatives seem to decide who gets funded. You know what hospitals get upgraded? What projects get the go ahead regardless of their benefit to the community. And I think that's kind of the bigger point here, really.

One interesting bit of evidence earlier in the piece to Aycock came from Nigel Blendon, who was the former head of political strategy for Premier Mike Baird when Berejiklian was treasurer, and money for the gun club was about to come before cabinet and Blunden wrote a memo to the premier in which he complained not only that this particular pet project of McGuire's was not economically sound. He complained because McGuire's seat was a safe seat. He said at the very least, if there are going to be splashing money out like this, they should be splashing it out in marginal seats.

And in the cases that I take a look is looking at these two cases. The amounts of money were relatively tiny, you know, $35 million or in total. But when you look around at the bigger picture, we're talking billions of dollars at a state level and particularly at a federal level. You know, think of sports rorts, think of commuter car parks, think of I think it's up to about $7 billion now in various discretionary programmes that the federal government is running. This is not the way that things should happen. You know, there is due process. We have process. We have bureaucrats for the very purpose of making sure that taxpayers' money is spent to the benefit of all taxpayers.

RUBY:

Mike, thank you so much for your time, and I'll be interested to see what else comes out as the hearings continue.

MIKE:

Won’t we all, thanks.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today…

Collingwood Football Club forward Jordan De Goey has been charged with assault in the United States.

The New York City police department confirmed that De Goey and another Australian man were arrested after allegedly forcibly touching a woman at a nightclub, and assaulting her companion.

On Sunday the Collingwood football club said they were yet to speak to the AFL player.

And the Victorian government has announced it will host a state funeral for Australian TV icon Bert Newton.

Newton died while undergoing palliative care at a private clinic in Melbourne over the weekend. He was 83.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. See ya tomorrow.