ANGE:

For the people in Federal Parliament, there is no housing crisis. Almost all of our Parliamentarians own property, and more than half own investment properties on top of that. Some even have 6 or 7. Many of them had former lives in corporate law firms or big business. Less than half of them went to public schools. In other words, a lot of our most senior leaders are at the upper end of an elite class. But Julie Collins, the federal housing minister, doesn’t have that origin story.

COLLINS:

I had a few homes when I was growing up, more than average, but I spent some of my early childhood in Broadacre Public Housing Estate. It was a grey besser block home in a cul de sac. Yeah. It was, I suppose, what you call pretty basic at the time, yeah. It was, you know, not much different from a lot of Australians at the time. I think, you know, my growing up experiences weren't unique, but, there were tough times sometimes and, you know, we were an ordinary working family.

ANGE:

Minister Collins grew up as a public housing kid in Tassie, who couldn’t couldn’t afford to finish high school. There aren't many people in parliament who can say that, and she's the only one in there with that kind of background to become a cabinet minister. And to be honest, she’s humble. She puts her success and upward mobility down to luck.

COLLINS:

But I do think that we can do better to make sure that luck is not such an important role, that every Australian child gets an opportunity to be whatever they want to be.

ANGE:

On paper, Julie Collins understands what it's like to be impacted by the hardest of housing challenges. Which might be why the prime minister, who also grew up in public housing, chose her to be responsible for the federal government’s housing policy.

COLLINS:

And that's certainly what drives me in terms of making sure that more Australians can have a safe, affordable place to call home. Because it's more than just a house. It's more than just, you know, a roof over somebody's head. It's actually somewhere where they can feel safe. It's a place to which they can, you know, enrich their own lives, you know, get employment, go to school, have a community, have family and friends visit, like it's so critically important. It’s not just about a roof over their head, but obviously that roof is really important.

[Theme Music Starts]

ANGE:

So, does the minister for housing think we’re in a crisis? How does she plan to make sure we all have a safe, affordable place to call home? And how will she convince voters in the next election that Labor is the party with the boldest ideas on housing? I’m Ange McCormack and this is the Great Housing Disaster, a special series from 7am. This is episode 5: The minister for housing.

[Theme Music Ends]

ANGE:

Minister Collins, how would you describe the housing situation in Australia right now?

COLLINS:

Well, there are certainly some really difficult challenges for Australians around housing at the moment. Certainly far too many Australians are doing it tough, whether they be Australians with a mortgage or Australians that are renting. You know, people that are doing it tough.

ANGE:

Would you call it a crisis or how would you sort of describe what we're in?

COLLINS:

I'd say that we have some significant housing challenges, particularly for people on low and middle incomes, which is why our policies are really targeted at trying to support people on low and middle incomes into housing and making sure that they have safe, secure housing.

ANGE:

So do you sort of agree with that word crisis? Or it sounds like, you know, challenges is one thing, but is crisis too strong of a word?

COLLINS:

Well, I think it is for those people who are experiencing a tough time, but it's not for everybody. You know, it is for, you know, a lot of Australians who have a mortgage at the moment, you know, being crunched by mortgage interest rates. It is for Australians who are trying to find somewhere that's affordable to rent. But for some Australians who might be in a long term rental or have had a home for some time, you know, they are doing better than those that are doing it tough.

ANGE:

And thinking about some of those challenges, what do you think is the biggest issue in housing in Australia that needs fixing?

COLLINS:

Well, I've been listening to all the experts and all the experts tell me the biggest issue is supply. We haven't been building enough homes for decades in Australia. You know, when you look at the number of homes we have per thousand people, we're way below the OECD average. We haven't been building enough homes for quite some time, and we need to put downward pressure on prices and rents. And the best way to do that is to add to supply as quickly as we can, which is what our government has been focussed on.

ANGE:

And how is your government going to increase supply in Australia? Can you talk to me about that?

COLLINS:

Yeah, we've been pretty ambitious.

Audio excerpt — Julie Collins:

“When I stood in this place many months ago to first introduce these bills, I said the Housing Australia Future Fund will be the start of an enduring promise from the Australian government that more Australians will have a safe, affordable place to call home. Our government has not forgotten that promise.”

COLLINS:

We have what's known as our ambitious national housing target. You know, the 1.2 million homes from 1 July this year for five, over five years. We originally had it at a million, but what we're doing is we're working with states and territories, and we got the historic decision out of national cabinet last year.

Audio excerpt — Anthony Albanese:

“This will incentivise states and territories to undertake the reforms, which are necessary to boost housing supply and increase housing affordability. This ambitious target will be supported by the Housing Support Program. A $500 million dollar competitive funding program for local and state governments to kickstart housing supply.”

COLLINS:

We got all the states and territories to agree that they would do significant reforms, particularly around planning and zoning, and other interventions so that we can add to supply more quickly. We're talking with the sector in the industry about what does that look like. We're working right across government, whether it be the minister for Skills and Training, whether it be the minister for Industry on supply chain issues and modular housing, you know, right across government about how do we get these homes on the ground? We've had the treasurer do investor roundtables, with institutional investors. We've got the prime minister. You know, we're all really committed to pushing that target from 1 to 1.2 because we know we need more homes for Australians.

Audio excerpt — Anthony Albanese:

“Updating state, regional and local strategic plans to reflect housing supply targets; promoting medium and high density housing and well-located areas close to existing public transport connections, amenities and employment, and streamlining approval pathways.”

COLLINS:

And that's what that's all about. We've got money on the table to incentivise the states to do the reforms, and at the same time, we of course are building more social and affordable homes through the Housing Australia Future Fund, the National Housing Accord, and working again with states and territories. I mean, when I talk to the sector in the industry and to states and territories, what they tell me is, is they're optimistic for the first time in a long time because they have a federal government that's back at the table when it comes to housing, because that was not their experience for almost the last decade. The former government said, you know, particularly social and affordable housing, that's an issue for the states, we'll leave it with them. Whereas we're putting our shoulder to the wheel and saying, no tier of government is going to solve this alone. Governments aren't going to solve this alone. We all need to be working together as a community if we're going to turn this around and that means that we all have to put our shoulder to the wheel. Federal governments, state governments, local governments, community housing providers, institutional investors, the whole community. Like this should be a national target that we're all working together to actually deliver on.

ANGE:

And you mentioned social and affordable housing targets at the moment that are on the table. And the federal plan will deliver 40,000 new homes over five years. But we know that Australia needs 600,000 social and affordable homes right now. So I guess the question is, even if your housing commitments are more ambitious than the previous government, are your goals really big enough to meet the shortfall?

COLLINS:

Well, we're actually doing more than that. If you look at the National Housing Accord, you look at the other money that we're putting into Housing Australia, you look at the Social Housing Accelerator, we’re actually as a federal government investing in around 60,000 new social and affordable homes over the five years.

ANGE:

Isn’t that still only a tenth of the 600,000?

COLLINS:

Yeah, if you look at what all the states and territories are doing as well, what we're doing is in addition and on top of what states and territories are doing, and I'd also say that what you're talking about is the number of people who are currently on a waiting list for housing. Not all of those people will want to be in social and affordable housing. Not all of those people will stay in social housing for long periods of time. These are people who are clearly having trouble getting homes right now. If we had more affordable rentals, if we help more people into homeownership, which we're also focusing on, that will also assist some of those people. So this is about, you know, solutions right across the board from homelessness all the way into homeownership. I mean, you know, I've clearly been in a public housing, I own a home. You know, it is achievable for people who are in public housing to own homes. And, you know, for them to aspire to homeownership is something we should encourage and support them to do, which is why things like the changes we made to the Home Guarantee Scheme are so important. I mean, we've now assisted more than 100,000 Australians since we came to office into homeownership, which, you know, is a really good thing.

ANGE:

And you mentioned the ambitious plans, you called it ambitious plans, to build more than a million new homes over the next five years. That's going to involve ramping up construction of homes at a massive scale. The thing is though, new data has revealed that higher density approvals have hit their lowest monthly figure in almost 12 years. Practically, how is that going to change virtually overnight?

COLLINS:

Well, this is about turning around the ship that was heading in the wrong direction. We inherited a significant housing challenge in this country when we came to office. Working with the states and territories, doing those planning and zoning reforms, I mean, this is hard work that, you know, doesn't get a lot of sexy media, one might say. But this is really hard work that's going on now, today. States are doing some of these reforms. We've seen some of them move already. You know, that is what this is about, it's about turning it around. We currently have under construction today around 227,000 dwellings at the moment. We obviously had a lag in that post-Covid because of supply chain issues, and it was taking much longer to complete dwellings as well. So what we're doing is we're working on supply chain issues. We're working on skills and training needed to make sure we've got the workforce to build the homes as well. You know, we are right across the board, aiming to reach that target.

ANGE:

Minister, economists and housing affordability advocates have for a long time called for changes to negative gearing and capital gains tax to bring house prices down. Because, you know, right now, Australia's tax policy rewards people who make their income from already owning property. I spoke to economist from Tassie, Saul Eslake, who told me that, working for a living and earning a wage is the least rewarded form of income in this country. Are you worried about what that system is doing to entrench inequality for younger generations?

COLLINS:

Well, we're obviously, when it comes to taxes, focussed on issues around, you know, income tax cuts that people are getting on 1 July where we've got more than 13 million Australians getting a tax cut on 1 July, changes to multinational tax to make sure Australia is getting our fair share of those multinational, you know, incomes, we've got quite a full agenda there. And what we're doing in terms of housing is we're focusing on the thing that all the experts tell us we need to focus on, which is supply. It is adding to supply that will put downward pressure on house prices and rent prices. As I've said, we actually have less dwellings per 1000 people than the OECD average. That needs to lift significantly.

ANGE:

So in adding to supply, will that mean house prices of already established homes will go down? I'm wondering how that will realistically lead to more affordable housing.

COLLINS:

Well, what we need to do obviously is we need to put downward pressure on house prices in terms of adding to supply. We're told by all of the experts, and all of the data says that when you add to supply, you put downward pressure on prices and that is what we're focussed on doing.

ANGE:

But it means that established homeowners won't see their house price go down.

COLLINS:

Well, you know, the market is a delicate thing. You need to be really careful, you know, when you pull a lever at one side of the housing spectrum, that it doesn't impact another in a negative way or in a bad way. What we need to do is we need to have enough homes for everybody. We need to have homes right along the housing spectrum for all Australians. You know, we need to make sure that we're adding to supply of transitional and emergency housing, adding to supply of social and affordable rental homes, adding to supply of market rentals, adding to the supply of private dwellings for home ownership. Right along the spectrum we need to add to supply.

ANGE:

After the break, how Julie Collins plans to convince voters that Labor can fix the housing crisis.

[Advertisement]

Audio excerpt — Max Chandler Mather:

“The Greens have asked you for months to make an immediate investment from the budget in public housing, and work with the states and territories to impose national limits on rent increases. And until this weekend, you have refused. Prime Minister, now that you have caved in and put $2 billion on the table to get the Labor premiers to shift on housing, will you now show the same leadership and work with National Cabinet to make unlimited rent increases illegal?”

Audio excerpt — The Speaker:

“Order!”

Audio excerpt — Anthony Albanese:

“…we will not be held back by a Noalition of the Liberal Party and the Greens political party saying no to public housing. And what we have done is work with states and territories on the issue of housing supply, because yes, I understand that renters are doing it tough. Yes, I want to do things about that. Yes, that's why we have a renters rights agreement…”

ANGE:

Minister, I want to ask about renters. We've spoken a bit about housing affordability and there are policies on the table to help, you know, people buy their first home and that kind of thing. But I guess where is the policy from the federal government that specifically helps renters? And, you know, I know that there's cost of living relief and everyone will get a tax cut in July, but so will landlords and so will homeowners, like they will all benefit from those cost of living relief measures. Where are the policies for renters?

COLLINS:

Well what I opened yesterday in Macquarie Park in New South Wales was social and affordable rental homes and private rental homes. These are rentals that are available below market rate. Affordable rental homes. You know, we are doing that right now. We're talking about building another 10,000 through the housing accord, to be matched by states with another 10,000. And we're talking about out of the Housing Australia Future Fund, another 10,000 of those being affordable rental homes. And as I said, we have some under construction today because we immediately unlocked money when we came to office, the $575 million dollars, and I have seen and I have met with tenants like Tanya that I met yesterday, who are going into homes. Some of them are affordable rental homes, that are already being delivered.

ANGE:

Minister, public housing is obviously desperately needed in Australia. Advocates say the system is basically a mess. But, you know, Australia wasn't always like this. At the height of our public housing construction after the Second World War, the Queen even came to visit and we showed off public housing to her, we were really proud of our public housing stock. I'm wondering, you know, if King Charles came to visit today, is public housing something we'd show off to him?

COLLINS:

Some of it is. Some of it is state of the art like the one I opened yesterday, like the one, 2 or 3 weeks ago, I opened in Prahran, but obviously we need a lot more of it, and that's what we're focussed on delivering with states and Commonwealth governments working together to deliver more social and affordable housing, particularly social homes, which is public housing. Right? We are busy delivering them. We have already delivered more than 4,930 add social and affordable homes since we came to office, through Housing Australia. We want to do tens of thousands more, as I've said to you. We've already given the states the $2 billion dollars last June for more social homes, which we're talking about are public housing homes. We have tenants in them in Western Australia that have already been open to some of these homes. So they are happening today. But as you've identified, we have constraints in the construction market that we're also trying to deal with, and we can only move so fast, and we're doing it as fast as we can, and we're putting pressure on the states and territories to deliver them as fast as we can. Because, of course, states and territories primarily deliver public housing.

ANGE:

And you said some of it would be shown off to the King. What about the rest of the stock, is that not worth being proud of, or what kind of state is the rest of public housing in?

COLLINS:

Well, it's in various conditions across the country, obviously. And we obviously are working with states and territories to get an uplift. For instance, the site in Prahran in Melbourne that I talked about, they took down some old public housing and they had a 90% uplift in density. And they've got now really quite spectacular, you know, built to silver standard for access, you know, built to the highest energy efficiency rating, you know, really quite lovely homes that all Australians should be able to have and we want to see a lot more of them.

ANGE:

And ministers, some people are predicting that the next federal election will be the housing election. The Greens are obviously agitating really hard on housing, it seems to be one of their number one policies. How will you convince voters that Labor is serious on fixing this crisis?

COLLINS:

Well, we're focussed on practical outcomes and delivering for Australians, and this shouldn't be about political parties and politics. This should be about people and getting the homes we need for people. People that I talked about before, like Tanya, people Iike Anmar that I met in Prahran, you know, who hadn't had a safe home for years. That's what this is about. This should be bigger than politics. This should be about everybody heading in the same direction to fix the housing challenges in this country, to fix the supply issues that we've had for decades. I’m focussed on delivering for people like Anmar, like Tanya that I've met in the last couple of weeks, like the people that I grew up with. This should be about delivering for people.

[Theme Music Starts]

ANGE:

Minister, thanks so much for your time today.

COLLINS:

Thanks very much.

ANGE:

This has been The Great Housing Disaster, a special series from 7am and Schwartz Media.

This series was produced by Cheyne Anderson, Atticus Bastow, Zoltan Fecso and Kara Jensen-Mackinnon.

Our senior producer on the series was Chris Dengate.

Our theme music and original composition were by Zoltan Fecso.

Our editor was Scott Mitchell.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief, and Sarah McVeigh is our head of audio.

The Great Housing Disaster was hosted by me, Ange McCormack, and it was a pleasure to work on this series, and also I have to say to host 7am for the past 9 or 10 months. I’m letting you know that because this is my last episode on 7am. I’m taking some time off and moving overseas, but it has been such a pleasure to do this job. Thank you so much for listening and for all of your kind feedback. Next week, 7am will be hosted by Ashlynne McGhee. She will be your new host before Ruby Jones returns to 7am later this year.

[Theme Music Ends]

[Advertisement]