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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

Mothers whose families were torn apart by the robo-debt scheme welcomed the start of the long-awaited royal commission into the policy this week.

One, Kath Madgwick, said her son took his own life just hours after learning he owed a Centrelink debt through the scheme – she’ll be making a submission to the Royal Commission.

But this week’s hearings are only the beginning of an attempt to hold people accountable over what happened.

Today, Columnist for The Saturday Paper, Paul Bongiorno, on how the Commission is trying to find the truth, for the victims of robo-debt, and the future of integrity in our parliament.

It’s Friday, September 30.

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RUBY:

Paul, this week the enquiry into the robo-debt programme got underway and robo-debt is of course the automated debt recovery scheme that began back in 2015 and ended up unlawfully claiming billions of dollars from people placing enormous stress on them. This enquiry, it's a big moment for everyone who was impacted by this scheme, isn't it?

PAUL:

Well, it certainly is, Ruby. And that was clear from the moment the commission opened its doors on Tuesday.

Archival tape -- Sandra Sully:

“The long awaited royal commission into the unlawful robo-debt scheme has begun in a bid to try and find answers…”

PAUL:

Government Services Minister Bill Shorten flew into Brisbane to attend the first day of hearings and he was accompanied by two women whose sons took their lives while being pursued over Centrelink debts.

Archival tape -- Seven News reporter:

“Two women united by a common grief and now a common purpose.”

Archival tape -- Woman 1:

“We need to know who's responsible for this and people need to be held accountable.”

Archival tape -- Woman 2:

“We need the accountability. We need the answers.”

Archival tape -- Seven News reporter:

“From a royal commission launched today into the robo-debt scheme…”

PAUL:

They're amongst the 400,000 who the government unlawfully alleged owed a total of $1.7 billion, with the onus of proof on them to show otherwise.

Archival tape -- ABC News reporter:

“The Automated Debt Recovery Programme ran from 2015 to 2019 and claimed almost $2 billion in payments for more than 400,000 people…”

PAUL:

The trauma the programme caused to some of the most vulnerable in our society was immense.

Archival tape -- Catherine Holmes:

“I understand that many just won't want to revisit the experience. But submissions by those who are prepared to describe what happened in their case will be very helpful indeed in establishing the detail and the human impact of what occurred.”

PAUL:

And the Commissioner, former Queensland chief Justice Catherine Holmes, has called for those who want to talk about their experiences of the robo-debt scheme to make submissions.

Archival tape -- Catherine Holmes:

“This was a difficult, stressful time in the lives of thousands of people who were told they had debts to pay.”

RUBY:

And it seems only right, Paul, that these people will have their moment to tell the commission about what happened to them and to their family. But when it comes to accountability, Paul, what avenues does it seem like the enquiry is going to pursue?

PAUL:

Well Ruby the Commission has no doubt there are real questions that need answering and that former senior ministers and bureaucrats will be called in to provide these answers.

Archival tape -- Catherine Holmes:

“Many people at different levels of government will be asked to give an account of their role in the devising implementation and continuing of the robo-debt scheme. But to focus appropriately and in accordance with the terms of reference will be on those in senior positions who had or should have had oversight of it.”

PAUL:

And Ruby, that could include former Liberal ministers like Marise Payne, Michael Keenan, Christian Porter, Alan Tudge, Stuart Robert, as well as Scott Morrison, all were involved with the scheme at various times and could potentially be called as witnesses.

At the outset of the hearings she rejected the former government's arguments that it was merely following debt collection processes set up by its Labor predecessors. Holmes noted that back in November 2019, the Federal Court made a declaration with the government's consent, no less, that the automated income averaging method was, quote…

Archival tape -- Catherine Holmes:

“…not capable of satisfying a decision maker of the existence of a debt.”

PAUL:

And the commissioner said it now falls to her to examine how it was that the robo-debt scheme was set up on that basis and why perhaps more puzzlingly, it was maintained, especially as counsel assisting Justice Greggery KC said that the AAT first ruled the method used to raise debts, was invalid back in 2017 and attempts by the Senate and the media to access written advice to Morrison when he was Social Services Minister in 2015. Well, they've been blocked. We may now soon find out what he had to hide. If not, why?

RUBY:

But Paul, this isn't the first time, is it, that we've had an incoming government set up a royal commission into something that the previous government has done. We saw the same thing happen just the other way around when the coalition first came into power, didn't we?

PAUL:

Well, that's right, Ruby. There are precedents. Tony Abbott, in the early days of his prime ministership, established two royal commissions into his defeated Labor opponents.

Archival tape -- Tony Abbott:

“This programme was a failure of government and it cascaded into failures in the workplace…”

PAUL:

One was into the ‘Pink Batts’ home insulation scheme, and the other in trade unions.

Archival tape -- Tony Abbott:

“The leadership, which this parliament should show, is the leadership necessary to clean up the union movement. That's the leadership that would be nice to see a little bit of amongst members opposite. Why are members opposite trying to protect the rorts, the rackets and the rip offs which have been so abundantly exposed before this royal commission?”

PAUL:

But I have to tell you, both were highly contentious. The $25 million pink batts inquiry, well, it was the seventh into the scheme and it provided no new insights into its operation. But it hauled former prime minister Kevin Rudd and Minister Peter Garrett into the witness box in what was widely seen as an exercise of vindictive humiliation. The $45 million trade union royal commission was tainted from the start when Abbott's hand-picked commissioner, former High Court judge Dyson Heydon, was challenged over perceived bias.

Archival tape -- Tony Abbott:

“What we have seen, Mr. Speaker, over the last few days is a squalid attempt by the Opposition to smear a former High Court judge…”

RUBY:

Right, but I guess now the onus really is on Labor to prove that this Royal Commission won't be a political weapon. And to do that Labor's going to have to play a pretty straight bat, aren't they?

PAUL:

True, Ruby. The government, though, has set up a robust royal commission with terms of reference designed to get to the bottom of what is, as Bill Shorten so aptly says, Australia's greatest breach of public administration in Social Security.

Australians have a right to know how and why this happened. But the Greens say the Commission's findings should also be the basis for a social security system that supports people rather than punish them.

RUBY:

We'll be back in a moment.

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RUBY:

Paul, let's talk a bit about what the opposition is saying about the robo-debt royal commission, because I'm sure that they aren’t in favour for the inquiry.

PAUL:

Well, when Albanese announced the Royal Commission five weeks ago, Peter Dutton dismissed it as a witch hunt.

Archival tape -- Peter Dutton:

“So I presume the terms of reference will include Labor's time in the portfolio when this situation first started. Of course, if it's not, then it's clear that this is nothing more than a political witch hunt…”

PAUL:

He said the Prime Minister is quote, obsessing about this sort of get square with Scott Morrison when families are struggling to pay their power bills. You know, it's a great pity the Liberals didn't have the same concerns for the hundreds of thousands of vulnerable Australians traumatised by the illegal robo-debt repayment demands. But there is plenty of concern for politicians who might be caught up in the Government's new anti-corruption commission. Senior opposition figures have been saying they are particularly worried for the good name and emotional well-being of anyone who may be called to publicly front the commission. I have to say the demands for compassion and fairness, well, they're truly inspiring. Dutton and his shadow treasurer Angus Taylor say they don't want innocent people trashed. However, overwhelming public support for a powerful, transparent and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission would suggest these concerns about the public hearings are not widely shared. Something Peter Dutton, unlike his predecessor Scott Morrison, looks like he's now accepted. And it's the first real sign that the Liberal leader is ready to emerge from under Morrison's dark shadow.

RUBY:

So Dutton is supporting the anti-corruption commission then, Paul? Can you tell me more about that and about what it is that's actually being proposed?

PAUL:

Well, midweek Dutton gave in-principle support to the proposal and said the safeguard of public hearings in exceptional circumstances and the public interest satisfied him.

Archival tape -- Peter Dutton:

“I believe that that is getting a balance right. I don't I don't want a show trial. I want people who have committed a crime to go to jail. That's what I want…”

PAUL:

And he'll be hoping that his still shellshocked and fractious coalition party room is behind him. Even so, there's something of a straw man argument here in New South Wales with the country's most powerful corruption busting body. Public hearings are rare. One estimate is 4 to 5% of all its investigations. A point that the Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus made in Parliament, where he also stressed the decision to hold public hearings always remains with the independent commissioner.

Archival tape -- Mark Dreyfus:

“The Commission will have power to hold public hearings in exceptional circumstances and where it is in the public interest to do so.”

PAUL:

The other factors, even in New South Wales, these hearings are held only after the Commission has gathered enough evidence to convince it, its target or targets have a case to answer. You know, deterrence through shaming is a powerful tool against corrupt behaviour. Ruby, a watchdog without teeth or a bark, is obviously useless and Dreyfus says he wants crooks or the corrupt to be, quote, afraid, very afraid of his new beast.

RUBY:

So the commission won't automatically hold public hearings, then Paul that would only happen in, quote, exceptional circumstances. Wouldn't it be better for that to be the other way round for everything to be presumed public unless circumstances called for privacy similar to the way that our courts operate? Because I can't help but think the only people who would really benefit from secrecy here are the politicians, people who might be accused of wrongdoing.

PAUL:

Well, a couple of points, Ruby. Mark Dreyfus says the commission will be required to publish reports at the conclusion of any enquiry held in private or not. And even those calling for more public hearings with a lower hurdle of the public interest without the exceptional circumstances requirement, say Dreyfus has in fact produced a strong anti-corruption framework. And there's now going to be a joint committee comprising all sides of the Parliament who will examine the legislation. And Dreyfus says he is open to amendments. The Greens and crossbench in the Senate may well push hard for some. David Pocock says the independent commission should be able to make hearings public if they believe it is in the public interest and not be constrained to do so only in exceptional circumstances. And Senator Jacqui Lambie says it's just about going to kill off trust that we're trying to establish with the Australian people without public hearings. Ironically, if they push too hard, the government may well have the Opposition to fall back on for support in the Senate.

RUBY:

And Paul, when do you think about the decades of suspicion and scandal that we've now seen at the federal level and the lack of politicians actually being held accountable? I think it's pretty clear that public trust has been eroded and that an integrity commission was a key priority for voters. I mean, it's one of the main reasons that many of those people on the crossbench that you just mentioned actually got there. So how important is it that Labor really get this right?

PAUL:

It is crucial, Ruby, and Prime Minister Albanese knows it; and that's why he and Dreyfus have been talking to all sides of the Parliament. The Prime Minister says it's important to restore trust that the entire Parliament supports this powerful safeguard for integrity in our governance. And I think it'll be a brave politician who’s seen to reject it. So strong is public opinion and as we clearly saw at the election.

RUBY:

Paul, thank you so much for your time.

PAUL:

Thank you, Ruby. Bye.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today...

Australia’s inflation has eased slightly, from 7% in the year to July down to 6.8% in the latest figures, released on Thursday.
According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the slight fall in inflation was due to slowing fuel prices.

The governor of the Reserve Bank has already hinted that interest rates are likely to rise again next Tuesday.

And...

Australia’s High Court will have a female majority for the first time in history, after Justice Jayne Jagot was announced as the replacement for Justice Patrick Keane, who has reached the mandatory age for retirement.

In the announcement by the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General, Justice Jagot was described as an “outstanding lawyer and an eminent judge”. She will commence her High Court position in mid-October.

7am is a daily show from The Monthly and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Kara Jensen-Mackinnon, Alex Tighe, Zoltan Fecso, and Cheyne Anderson.

Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

Brian Campeau mixes the show. Our editor is Scott Mitchell. Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

I’m Ruby Jones, see you next week.

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