RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

In 2016, the Federal Government established a fully automated system to claw back what it said were unpaid welfare debts.

That system became known as Robodebt. Last year the federal court found Robodebt was unlawful, but that was after 470,000 people had already been forced to pay the money back.

Now the government has settled a huge class-action lawsuit over the issue. Today, columnist for The Saturday Paper Paul Bongiorno on whether anyone within the government will be held accountable for Robodebt.

Archival Tape -- Newsreader 1

“It was the botched program that raised automated debts against hundreds of thousands of welfare recipients…”

Archival Tape -- Newsreader 2

“The Federal Government today agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over its so-called Robodebt…”

Archival Tape -- Newsreader 3

“Australians who were the victims of the Government’s Robodebt scheme will receive compensation…”

RUBY:

Paul, this week, the government settled the largest class action in Australian history. It was a big moment. Can you tell me about it?

PAUL:

It was Ruby. In fact, that's an understatement. It was a huge moment. The settlement required the Commonwealth to restore over 1.2 billion dollars to 400,000 citizens it had illegally pursued for alleged Social Security overpayments. And there's no doubt that this is a big win for the claimants and the firm representing them, Gordon Legal.

The massive and historical settlement really does reveal what a debacle the scheme was from start to finish. And don't imagine that the architect of the scheme, the Prime Minister himself, doesn't realise how big a disaster it is. Scott Morrison went to great lengths to create a huge diversion in the full knowledge that the Robodebt story would break this week.

RUBY:

What was that diversion, Paul?

PAUL:

A well-placed source says Morrison took the Japanese government by surprise when he informed them a couple of weeks ago he'd fly to Tokyo to sign an in-principle agreement on a long negotiated defence cooperation arrangement.

Archival Tape -- Newsreader 1

“Mr Morrison is the first leader Japan’s new prime minister Yoshihide Suga has welcomed to Japan - both nations have a watchful eye on China…”

PAUL:

The fact that this trip was organised in the middle of an international pandemic...well, it raised eyebrows. All official Prime Ministerial trips overseas you know Ruby create their own news. So what better way to counterbalance coverage of massive and wilful government incompetence than to pull on an overseas trip?

RUBY:

Right. So did Scott Morrison really organise this trip to Japan to avoid having to deal with the consequences of the Robodebt settlement?

PAUL:

Well what you have to realise is that the government has known for months that its day of reckoning on robo debt would be this week - Cabinets met to discover the tactics; what would they do? Would they settle? Would they fight it? And they knew that once they agreed to settle that it would be huge news. Now, the tactic of crisis management for governments, is to create other big stories so at the very least, if it's not a complete distraction, it helps to move the story on. And we do know that Scott Morrison, when it comes to marketing, he's a pretty dab hand.

RUBY:

Paul you've said that Scott Morrison was the architect of the proposed scheme, can you tell me about how it started and where the responsibility now lies?

PAUL:

Well, Scott Morrison was Treasurer in 2016 when the programme was created as a major revenue measure. In fact, as Treasurer Morrison forecast, 2.1 billion dollars would be recovered in the welfare crackdown.

Archival Tape -- Scott Morrison

“The system has to have integrity. Eight out of 10 taxpayers have to know that if their tax dollars are being spent, then I as a Minister are ensuring that people aren't rorting it.”

PAUL:

And he said that would help him on the way to restoring the budget surplus, which, as you remember, three or four years ago, is that budget surplus was the holy grail the Liberals were promising to achieve.

Archival Tape -- Scott Morrison

“Most people, if they find themselves in debt or overpayment, it's often just a mistake. It's an error. And so we've worked out ways to proactively help people or target people who may be at risk of doing that…”

PAUL:

But as the letters went out in their thousands demanding payment from current and former Centrelink recipients, complaints began to mount that people were being asked to pay debts they didn't owe.

Archival Tape -- Newsreader 1

“to the former head prosecutor taking on Centrelink over its controversial Robodebt scheme, which has affected almost 200,000 people…”

PAUL:

At that stage Christian Porter was the Social Services Minister and he responded to the complaints by splitting hairs, as is his custom. The nearly 170,000 letters sent out in just six months in 2016 were, he said, review letters, not letters of demand. And he said it was evidence the high volume system was working extremely well.

Archival Tape -- Christian Porter

“Now, there will, from time to time, no doubt be people who, for whatever reason, are experiencing difficulties getting online or having problems. But we're incredibly accommodating of those circumstances…”

PAUL:

His successor in the job, Alan Tudge, went on A Current Affair to threaten jail for people who owed Centrelink money. He was very menacing, he said: ‘we’ll find you, we’ll track you down and we’ll have you repay those debts. And you may end up in prison.’

RUBY:

So has there been any fallout then for any of these ministers who were involved in overseeing the scheme?

PAUL:

Not one of the four ministers involved in the illegal scheme has resigned or been called to account personally. And that's despite each one of them being warned of how dubious it was for more than three years. The whole sorry saga demonstrates truly just how far from conventional understanding of Ministerial accountability this cabinet and its leader have strayed.

RUBY:

We'll be back in a moment.

[ADVERTISEMENT]

RUBY:

Paul, the Robodebt programme was overseen by quite a few senior government figures. Stuart Robert, however, is the Minister who is responsible for it now. So what is he saying?

PAUL:

Ruby, Stuart Robert could you believe it is claiming credit for stopping the scheme last year. He told Sky News that he had concerns about the efficiency of using this long standing practise. You know, it's like the arsonist wanting credit for calling the fire brigade.

Archival Tape -- Stuart Robert

“So this has been a part of social welfare or social services platform for decades and decades and decades, simply this government that has finally turned it off and decided that further proof points will be sufficient to raise debt. So unfortunately, it's been a long standing practice.”

Archival Tape -- Newsreader, Laura Jayes

“It hasn't been a long standing practice though…”

PAUL:

It was too much for Sky interviewer Laura Jayes. She accused Robert of post-truth politics.

Archival Tape -- Newsreader, Laura Jayes

“But you’re only talking about data matching, you're not addressing the other parts of the question. The Ombudsman Report from 2017 clearly confirms that the start of this flawed scheme was under the Coalition government. Do you dispute that?”

Archival Tape -- Stuart Robert

“The scheme at scale began in 2015, but the basis on which it was run, which is the use of ATO average income data, goes back to the Hawke and Keating days, and the ombudsman also makes that quite clear…”

PAUL:

But the reality is the government created this problem. It spent millions of dollars in legal battles trying to keep it out of the public domain. And even as it surrendered on Monday, settling out of court to again protect its Ministers from scrutiny, it also insisted that it accepted no legal liability for the pain and hurt to thousands.

RUBY:

So it looks like Stuart Robert will survive then?

PAUL:

Well there is speculation in Canberra that Morrison will move Robert out of the portfolio at the end of the cabinet reshuffle, but on Sky News, Robert noted the Prime Minister had already apologised on behalf of the Nation's Parliament. And I've got to say that was a curious way of putting it as if everyone in parliament was responsible. We know half the parliament has been attacking the scheme for the last four years. Robert went on to say, ‘and I certainly join him’, that is the Prime Minister, ‘in the apology.’ Well, no one has any doubt that both of them have something to apologise for.

RUBY:

Right. So a couple of apologies then. But even though the government has been forced to pay out over one billion dollars because of its handling of rober debt, no Minister has taken responsibility. So is this the end of it?

PAUL:

Well, after last year's election, Labour's Bill Shorten was handed the government services portfolio to shadow, and he and the chair of the Senate enquiry into the fiasco, the Greens Rachel Siewert, are now calling for a Royal Commission. Shorten's after who knew what and when. He says he doesn't ever want to see it again where computers take over the people. He disdainfully refers to the government as ‘the mob who just want to blame the poor for all the problems’ and imply that somehow if you're on Centrelink, you're second class and you're ripping the system off. But there's no doubt that Morrison would see the settlement, messy and all as it is, embarrassing as it is, as drawing a line on the issue. And he'll do his best to move on.

RUBY:

And Paul, what is your view on all of this? Do you think that it shows a lack of compassion from the Federal government both for implementing this scheme, but then also this refusal to be held accountable for its failure?

PAUL:

Well, I think it does. I mean, there was a great human cost: 2000 people died who had received these notices. One estimate is that 300 of them committed suicide. We have had plenty of evidence over the years of people being severely distressed when they received these notices. There is no doubt that the welfare cheat syndrome is something that Scott Morrison and the Liberals do play to - Morrison himself sees welfare as a dirty word. And I think we're really at the stage, in my view with this government, of the worthy and the unworthy poor. And what should be remembered is that a majority of people, many of the people who get Social Security and welfare payments are the most vulnerable in our society anyway.

RUBY:

Paul, thank you so much for your time today.

PAUL:

Thank you, Ruby. Bye.

[ADVERTISEMENT]

RUBY:

Also in the news today…

A groundbreaking inquiry into the conduct of Australian special forces soldiers in Afghanistan has found credible evidence of war crimes. The inquiry recommended 19 soldiers be investigated by police for the killing of 39 prisoners and civilians. The Prime Minister and Chief of the Defence Force have apologised to the government of Afghanistan in light of the inquiry’s findings.

And South Australia reported no new coronavirus cases on the first day of it’s hard lockdown. More than 20,000 people have been tested in the past couple of days.

7am is a daily show from The Monthly and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Ruby Schwartz, Atticus Bastow, and Michelle Macklem.

Elle Marsh is our features and field producer, in a position supported by the Judith Neilson Institute for Journalism and Ideas.

Brian Campeau mixes the show.

Our editor is Osman Faruqi. Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

New episodes of 7am are released every weekday morning.

You can subscribe on your favourite podcast app to make sure you don’t miss out.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am, see you next week.