DANIEL:

Just a warning, today’s episode discusses traumatic events and refers to deceased Aboriginal people and contains offensive language. It’s also the second episode in a three part series. If you haven’t yet, go listen to Episode 1: Children of the Intervention.

You see a lot of cops here. In pursuit vehicles, driving the caged divisional vans you get in this part of the world, or checking the IDs as people line up outside the bottle shop in the town’s main shopping centre.

It feels like they’re everywhere and the numbers back up what the eyes can see. For every 100,000 people in the Northern Territory, there are 730 cops. Almost triple the national average.

We spoke to Uncle Bryan in the last episode, along with Damien and his 18 year old son, Byson. They represent three generations of Arrernte men, all of whom have had their own experiences with the Territorian police.

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“How does it make you feel, Unc, when you’re walking down the street and you see a police van headed towards you?”

Audio Excerpt - Uncle Bryan:

“It's like sad sort of thing, you know? Because you know they’re looking at you, they’re targeting you. As soon as they see one Black colour, they’re watching you.”

Audio Excerpt - Byson:

“They get a little overboard to be honest.”

DANIEL:

Everywhere I go in Alice Springs locals tell me about interactions they’ve had with the cops. Not everyone wants to say it into a microphone but the stories are similar. Stories about violent cops and about not feeling safe in their own town.

Audio Excerpt - Damien:

“You talk about murder, they've killed a lot of people.”

Audio Excerpt - Uncle Bryan:

“They kill a lot of people here, especially our people, black people. Nothing in the Northern Territory, nobody was found guilty.”

DANIEL:

Uncle Bryan’s talking about the fact that since the point of first contact between black and white people on this continent, thousands of Aboriginal people have died in custody and not a single law enforcement official has ever been convicted.

Audio Excerpt - Damien:

“You know, they walk around saying about gangs in the town and all this and that. But who's the gang? We're not a gang. Who's the ones wearing a badge, you know, linked up to another association or another badge? They're the ones with the gang because they're the one that wear the uniform.”

DANIEL:

The broken relationship between the police and locals isn’t just conjecture on the streets of Alice Springs. It’s acknowledged by the NT Police Commissioner who earlier this year apologised to Aboriginal Territorians for the harm caused by his organisation.

Audio Excerpt - Michael Murphy:

“So today, as the Police Commissioner in the Northern Territory, I unequivocally say I’m deeply sorry to all Aboriginal Territorians for the past harms and injustices caused by members of the Northern Territory police.”

[Theme Music Starts]

DANIEL:

I want to understand how things got to this point. Whether it’s possible to mend all broken pieces splintering the community here.

To begin to find meaning, I’d need to speak to the police themselves, and the Arrernte woman tasked with changing the culture within the force and trying to rebuild the relationship between her organisation and her people.

I’m Daniel James, from Schwartz Media and 7am, This is Alice Springs.

Episode Two: The coppers.

[Theme Music Ends]

DANIEL:

There’s one story that sums up where things stand between the cops and the community here.

It’s 2022. Police officer Zachary Rolfe has just been acquitted for the murder of a 19 year old Warlpiri man, Kumanjayi Walker. There were no Indigenous people on the jury, it was overwhelmingly white.

His family had waited years for a verdict, and when it finally came they were left reeling.

Audio Excerpt - Ned Jampijinpa Hargraves:

“Today’s not a very, it’s not a really happy day for us. It’s another sad day.”

DANIEL:

Standing on the steps of the Supreme Court in Alice Springs, their palpable grief, their anger and their deep despair showed the chasm that had grown between the police and the Aboriginal community. This is Senior Warlpiri Elder Ned Jampijinpa Hargraves.

Audio Excerpt - Ned Jampijinpa Hargraves:

“I just say, when we are going to get justice?! When?!

No guns in the rural remote community. We don’t want no guns! Enough is enough! It's got to stop.”

DANIEL:

When he killed Kumanjayi Walker, Zachary Rolfe fired three shots during an attempt to arrest him. Walker was holding a pair of scissors at the time.

A community officer who had arrested Walker many times before said he had never known him to resist arrest. He said Walker had been in town for his Grandad’s funeral and it was agreed that he’d hand himself in after that, but he didn’t get a chance to do that.

A subsequent coronial inquest into Walker’s death took two years to run. Another two years in the life of Walker’s family.

Finishing earlier this year, the inquest revealed that Zachary Rolfe had been involved in 46 use of force incidents in his three years in Alice Springs.

One of the videos from his own body cam was the arrest of a 14 year old.

The kid jumps in a wheelie bin, Rolfe kicks the bin over while the child’s inside.

Audio Excerpt - 14 Year Old Suspect:

“I’m sorry sir, I’m sorry sir, I’m sorry sir.”

DANIEL:

An internal investigation had found his use of force was not excessive.

But during the inquest, Rolfe gave frank and wide ranging testimony on the culture within the Northern Territory police force. The testimony would reveal what many had assumed for a long time, a culture of widespread racism exists within the force.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter 1:

“A series of explosive text messages downloaded from Constable Zachary Rolfe’s phone following his arrest in 2019 have been read aloud to the court…”

DANIEL:

Revelations with nowhere to hide in the form of testimony and texts from police officers presented to the inquest for all the world to see.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter 1:

“An unnamed officer texted Rolfe saying “heard you had a rough arvo yesterday, grubby beep. Constable Rolfe replying referring to Indigenous people as beep.”

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“The level of racism is palpable, because there was the text messages shared between the police officers that were involved in the operation.”

DANIEL:

John Lawrence SC is the former President of the NT bar association.

He touched down in The Territory via Melbourne from Edinburgh in the 80s at the same time the royal commission into deaths in custody was happening. And for nearly four decades, he’s represented Aboriginal people in the NT justice system.

Even after all that time witnessing Territory police up close, that inquest was still shocking.

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“And then coming out at the same inquest we discovered that the same group had these annual Christmas dinners where they gave out awards which were horrendously blatantly Alabama-style racist. With Coon of the Year award and, you know, blacking up stuff and, I mean, stuff that, you know, I honestly, I didn't think that we had descended to that level.”

DANIEL:

John takes the long view when he says that the fractured relationship between the police and Aboriginal communities has always been a bi-product of colonisation, but things really kicked into gear during the intervention.

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“When the intervention came in, one of the things that they spent millions on was setting up police stations in communities that previously didn't have any. Now, if you put a police station anywhere which was previously apparently crime free, you're going to end up within six months with a lot of people arrested and charged with criminal offences.

I mean I've joked that, if I was an Aboriginal person in 2024, I wouldn't even walk past the courthouse because there's some kind of hoovering vacuum mechanism that could suck you in the front door, put you in a dock and then put you down into the cells below and you're in the black Mariah van and off to jail you go. It's just, that's how effective, efficient our system has become. It's crazy shit.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Let’s talk about the nuts and bolts of it a little bit. What happens when a kid is arrested? What happens procedurally?”

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“What happens to Aboriginal kids is that they get taken to court and they will be, let's say, tried. Now what they are entitled to, like you and I, is due process which includes as your bastions the presumption of innocence, the onus of proof being on the state which is beyond reasonable doubt and it has to be based on real admissible evidence. Now, these are the standard protections and safeguards that our system has in order to prevent injustice and wrongful convictions. But none of them really have any application if you're a 17 year old Aboriginal kid who's up for breaking and entering or stealing cars, you're just whisked through a system at 100 miles an hour.”

DANIEL:

Kids are represented by crumbling legal aid services, stretched beyond their limits.

Bail restrictions placed on kids aren’t met because they can’t be met - and so around 70% kids who are in detention are on remand. Presumed innocent under the law, but locked up nonetheless. And they end up in places like Don Dale.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter 2:

“This is the vision that has sent shockwaves around the world. This was not filmed in Guantanamo Bay or North Korea. This was filmed in the Northern Territory, in our own country.”

Audio Excerpt - Malcolm Turnbull:

“The events at the Don Dale Centre that were set out on 4Corners, shocked and appalled Australians and we are dealing with it with a royal commission.”

DANIEL:

The Don Dale Youth Detention Centre, the one Malcolm Turnbull would eventually establish a Royal Commission over, was built in ‘91 specifically to lock up kids between age 10 and 17. Some sentenced to serve time there, others held there on remand. The facility is in Darwin, but kids from Alice Springs are often shipped there fifteen hours up the road. Away from home, their families and all they know.

Most are Aboriginal. In fact, nearly 82% of inmates in NT prison are Aboriginal even though they only make up 30% of the NT population. At times, 100 percent of all youth incarcerated here have been Aboriginal.

John remembers the first time a case of a kid at Don Dale was handed to him. All his years of experience couldn’t prepare him for what he saw happening there.

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“No sooner had I first discovered it that I realised that this had been going on for years, and it was still going on and it was like a boil that needed to be burst. That stuff that was going on in Don Dale, which was exposed by 4Corners, was torture and abuse, solitary confinement, assault, psychological batterings, all of that and more.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“What does that do to kids, say if there's a kid that's been on Don Dale and they end up back on the streets of somewhere like Alice Springs, what do they go back as?”

Audio Excerpt - John Lawrence:

“Worse. Their trauma and their injuries are damage compounded so they come out more injured than they went in and they haven't been rehabilitated in any way, shape or form. So they just go back to where they came from and the cycle goes on. And it's this cycle of perpetuation, which is really what the legal situation here is.”

DANIEL:

Kids are made worse by a failing justice system. Some kids bend to its will, others are broken by it. If they do come out the other side, often the cycle they’re in is all they have known and all they will know.

That cycle starts and ends with the coppers. A cycle that extends through its 154 year history.

Which leads to the police commissioner rising to his feet at Garma to make this apology.

Audio Excerpt - Michael Murphy:

“I know that I cannot change or undo the past, but as the Police Commissioner, alongside with our police officers, we can commit to not repeat the mistakes and injustices of the past. Northern Territory Police need to be accountable for the past treatment of Aboriginal people.”

DANIEL:

Standing next to the commissioner was Arrernte woman Leanne Liddle. This is the cop who’s been given the job of mending the relationship between the police and her people. The woman who has to take the apology and make it count.

So what’s her plan?

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Ready?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“All good. You want me to sit there? Oh there…”

DANIEL:

That’s after the break.

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Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“So it's around about quarter to eight in the morning and we are on our way to the, well, the police headquarters here in Alice Springs to speak to Leanne Liddle. And we’re speaking to her at a time when the Chief Commissioner has just made an apology to the Aboriginal people of the Northern Territory. And she has now been charged with basically changing the culture of the force to address things like systemic racism interpersonal racism, racial profiling. I think without a shadow of a doubt you could easily say its the most difficult and challenging job within the force itself. And the relations between the Aboriginal community here and NT Police are probably at an all time low.”

DANIEL:

Alice Springs police station looks like a typical municipal building from the 80s. Non-threatening, but imposing in a town of this size. It’s only once you’re inside, it feels like a cop shop.

Protective glass shielding the front counter, interview rooms to the left, limited access to anywhere beyond that.

As we wait to be shown to a room to record the interview, Leanne arrives and signs in.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“Hi Daniel,”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Nice to meet you.”

DANIEL:

I notice she makes time to speak to the constable behind the glass, an Aboriginal man. She gives him her contact details and tells him to stay in touch.

We’re shown into a small office somewhere in the heart of the building.

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Ok, we’re ready to roll? First off Leanne, thank you very much for your time, know how busy you are. As we sit here now in 2024, just at the start of your journey in this role, would you say that the Northern Territory Police is a racist institution?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“No. I see some individuals that have been racist and I see a lot of good officers that need more good officers around them. And I see a system where those good officers need tools to be able to make sure that those people who have behaviours, because usually with the racism, people are sexist as well and people are homophobic. So it's a combination of attitudes, not just one alone. So, you know, it needs to be everything that needs to be tackled.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“So do you think that the Aboriginal community of Alice Springs trust the police as we sit here at the moment?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I think there's a lot of work to be done. I think there's a lot of tangible outcomes that need to be seen on the ground before people regain that trust in police.

People should feel that when they call for police, or when police attend as an offender or a victim, that they're getting the service that they deserve.”

DANIEL:

Leanne was born and raised in Alice Springs. Her dad was a construction worker, her Mum a school counsellor. It was a safe upbringing with food on the table.

Her parents often took kids in. Leanne was told not to ask questions, just to make them feel welcome. It’s something that used to happen a lot. When there was no wrong door for a kid to walk through if they needed to get help from within their own community.

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“So, what was some of your first interactions with the police in Alice Springs?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“It was an assistant commissioner. His name was Soss Grant and he was my athletics coach and an amazing man. And I actually didn't realise he was the assistant commissioner until I was in my teenage years, because I think I would have run faster if I knew he was a policeman.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“So, what was your event?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I was, I was a sprinter.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“A Sprinter?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“And he always used to say to me that he thought I could make it to the Olympics. And if horses and boyfriends didn't get in the way, I might’ve gone there.”

DANIEL:

The way things used to be has clearly informed how she’s trying to address the issues confronting her people. As a young woman she wanted to join the police force to instigate change, to run towards it.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“My parents wouldn't let me join the Northern Territory police force, ironically.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“So that's why South Australia.”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“So they said, you can go over the border, you know nobody there. Off you go.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Because you don't want to be you not want to be arresting family members and causing trouble for your mob”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“And they, at that time, said the Northern Territory Police Force is racist.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Yeah.”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“And they didn't want me to experience that. So off I went. I had never even seen a traffic light before, let alone a roundabout. So things were very different for me down there. It was very lonely.”

DANIEL:

There’s a photo of her from this time leaning on a police car with the Adelaide skyline behind her. She’s proudly wearing a police uniform. Blue skirt, blue jumper and a big smile on her face.

But being a black copper was never going to be easy. The picture doesn’t come close to portraying the reality of what she was experiencing and what was ahead.

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Why did you decide to leave?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I got injured on duty. I had a terrible accident and ended up sort of having to re-evaluate my life. And then at that same time I'd outlined some, to the lawyer at the time, some issues of racism in the police force. And from there it sort of snowballed into a Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission court matter, and it ended in an out of court settlement.”

DANIEL:

In the late 90s, Leanne Liddle left and retrained as a lawyer.

In the 2010s, she was working with the Attorney General to establish the Aboriginal Justice Unit. It was a job that took her all across the NT.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“So we’re here at Mparntwe watch. Here by invitation from the Central Land Council…”

DANIEL:

Her goal was to end the over policing and over incarceration of Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory.

But in late 2019, while Leanne was putting the finishing touches on the Aboriginal Justice Agreement, Kumanjayi Walker was killed.

Audio Excerpt - Crowd chanting:

“We want justice for Walker! We want justice for Walker!”

DANIEL:

Like much of Australia, Leanne watched the inquest unfold. When she saw the racist text messages that it dredged up, the deeply racist awards ceremony run by the elite tactical unit, she was incensed and she couldn’t let it slide.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I rang the police commissioner and told him exactly how I felt. Like, he was a little bit surprised. I suppose I was surprised that lots of other people didn't know what was happening.

But that's how racism exists in the system, in small pockets, in large organisations, and they find people, you know, who think like that. Who they're brave enough to say that to and they sort of stick together. But, to be perfectly honest, I was impressed by what people were saying to me next. That they, too, as police officers were ashamed and embarrassed and sorry for the, you know, what was exposed.

I think it was a, it was a moment of shame and embarrassment and it, for me, the police force needed to own that if it were to move forward in fixing what needed to be fixed.”

DANIEL:

It was off the back of this call that Leanne made a decision that I’m not sure many people in her position would make.

After her parents warned her the police were racist, after she felt pushed out of the force by her treatment as the first Aboriginal female police officer, after watching the inquest and seeing everything it laid bare, Leanne went back.

She rejoined the police. For the same reason she’s ever done anything.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“Cause I think I could make a difference. I think that I really have the skills that can work with other people in a team to make a difference.”

DANIEL:

Now as the Executive Director of the Community Resilience and Engagement Command for the Northern Territory Police Force, she is specifically tasked with tackling and rooting out racism in the force.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“It sounds like a big task but, at the same time, there should be no racism in a police force and people should be able to work in a professional space and be their best. And, not only do non-Aboriginal people don't want racism, Aboriginal people don't want racism, so I think that's a perfect recipe for me to come in and create an environment and train people up and encourage people to call out racism when they see it, to have complaint mechanisms in place for people when they when it is raised.”

DANIEL:

Leanne’s has the dual task of stopping racism towards Aboriginal officers and changing the way cops police Aboriginal people.

So where does she even start?

She’s aiming to get 30% Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people on the force.

She says the lack of lived experience in decision making at every level has led to so many of the problems here.

There’s also a number of other measures, like training police in cultural awareness and strengthening complaint systems so officers have somewhere to go when they see or experience racism.

As Leanne runs through these measures for me, I can’t help but think it’s like putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.

She’s trying to make these changes at a time when the powerful Territory Police Union has said it thinks cops are being unfairly blamed for racism. How do you change police officers who don’t want to be changed? Who say that the blame shouldn’t be all placed on them?

It’s a reminder that the most powerful person in the justice system is the cop on the beat. They’re the ones that can taze, pepper spray or shoot you on the spot. They are the law. Prosecutors can only prosecute, judges can only sentence. If a cop resists change, then that can be one cop too many.

And to change things, Leanne is going to have to deal with every type of cop.

The more we talk the more real our conversation becomes. It feels like the enormity of the task is hitting her and she returns to why she is persevering, in spite of it all.

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I remember when I was a kid, going to school and I was really good at sport, and I was a really fast runner and I was a school captain. And there was a disabled girl who had cerebral palsy and I was in charge of, who was on the relay and she wanted to run.

And everyone was saying to me, don't let her run. Don’t let her run. She'll, you know, we're going to lose if you let her run. And I just sat down and went, let her run.

And it made her day when she ran. So, I’m gonna get upset, inclusivity is important.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Sometimes people just need a chance.”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“Yeah, and that came from my mum, she was always… She taught us. And she died about 12 months ago.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“That is so raw. Yeah, I just came across the 10th anniversary of my dad passing, and I thought I'd be over by then, but you don’t get over it. You just deal with it.”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I worry about who replaces people like my dad. You know, they were warriors. Still are. And that fire in the belly stuff, you know, they dealt with so much more than what we deal with and we think we're hard done by. But when they go, you know, what do we feel like? We've got to keep fighting for what's fair.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“It just seems to me that, here in the Territory if you are Aboriginal, no matter how strong your, all your role models have been, how they've nurtured and cared for you, even in the best of circumstances, you are invariably that far away from crossing over to another line because of all the societal factors and attitudinal factors. Do you think that's a fair statement?”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“I think that's an absolute correct statement. No matter how wealthy I am, no matter how well I dress, no matter how high I am in as a position title, no matter what sort of car I drive, no matter how many degrees I’ve got, I've got five I think but, you know, for me it's irrelevant, I'm just an Aboriginal person that is not looked at as someone who's been successful.

And I hate this question because people say, what did your parents do differently to be the way that you and your family are? To be who they are today? And I say, you should be asking yourself that question. What didn't those other kids get? Or what has happened to them so that they didn't succeed?”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Leanne, thank you so much for your time”

Audio Excerpt - Leanne Liddle:

“No, thank you.”

[Theme Music Starts]

DANIEL:

After the interview, I spent a good part of the day walking around town.

I landed at the Todd Tavern, the flashpoint that sparked the chaos that brought me to Alice Springs in the first place.

There’s a front bar and a back bar. In the front bar were a couple of grey nomads sitting down for a counter meal, the place is almost empty. As I turn the corner to go into the back bar, it’s full of Aboriginal people. Speaking in language, playing pokies and buying jugs of beer.

Two security guards march up and down the room. It’s dark, the windows are almost entirely blacked out so people can’t see out and people can’t see in. The front bar and the back bar sum up the gulf between two worlds in one small town.

One filled with light, comfort and room to think.

The other, dark, crowded and confined. A place known locally as "The Animal Bar”.

As I looked out the window, some young Aboriginal kids, with broad cheeky smiles were pushing their faces up against the glass of the tavern. One was being lifted up by her mum. Months earlier, kids not much older had been hurling themselves at the same windows trying to break through.

Later, I’d find out that lawyers logged a human rights complaint against the NT government and Police Commissioner Michael Murphy.

The lawyers allege that three unnamed Aboriginal police officers experienced racial vilification, derision and unequal pay for 20 years.

In response the Police Commissioner says he’s committed to ‘cultural reform’ of the force.

In the meantime, the streets of Alice Springs remain divided. A listless, hotbed of tension and chaos. People angered knowing the levers to change things are just out of reach.

This is Alice Springs.

[Theme Music Ends]

DANIEL:

Next episode, as politicians threaten hardline solutions I’m returning to Arrernte country to explore a different way forward.

Audio Excerpt - Lia Finocchiaro:

“Territorians have stood up against nearly 2 decades of escalating crime, an economy going backwards and the erosion of our once iconic lifestyle, but tomorrow is the start of a new day and a new chapter!”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“Do you see a long term future here for yourself and your family?”

Audio Excerpt - Interviewee:

“At the moment, no.”

Audio Excerpt - Interviewee 2:

“They're saying, oh, we'll put everybody in jail. Is that the plan? That everybody in the northern territory who will either be a prisoner or a warden by the year 2050?”

Audio Excerpt - Damien:

“I've seen a chemical here that actually works.”

Audio Excerpt - Daniel:

“What’s that chemical?”

Audio Excerpt - Damien:

“The chemical is back on country.”