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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

Since the Voice to Parliament referendum was announced, the Voice has enjoyed majority support according to the biggest opinion polls – that is, until this week.

As voting day nears, debate in the parliament and the media is only becoming more acrimonious and it seems like the resounding victory hoped for by advocates of the Voice will be harder to come by.

Today, the author The Voice to Parliament Handbook with Kerry O’Brien and board member of Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition Thomas Mayo – on whether the ‘Yes’ campaign is cutting through, and if it needs a clearer message.

It’s Thursday, June 29.

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Archival tape – Reporter 1:

“Support for the voice of Parliament is dwindling. According to the latest Newspoll, finding less than half of the country will vote Yes.”

Archival tape – Reporter 2:

“It's put pressure on our Premier to justify his move to introduce a local voice.”

Archival tape – Reporter 3:

“Anthony Albanese has rejected calls from the Opposition to delay the vote to avoid a potential defeat.”

RUBY:

Thomas I thought we could start by talking about the polling that came out earlier this week. So on Monday a Newspoll found that support for the Voice to Parliament had gone down with 43% of people saying that they support a Yes vote which was outstripped by the 47% who indicated that they would support a No vote. So for that 47% who might be considering voting against the Voice, what do you think that they need to think about and what is your message to them?

THOMAS:

Well, we really need to help people to see what this is through the misinformation that's out there. It's a tough task and we're working hard on that. Australians need to understand that this is simply about recognition and listening to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people is not all the things that the No campaign is saying. This is a simple proposal. You know, do we want to recognise Indigenous people? Should we be listening to them when we make decisions about them? And you know, it's about time that we do that. And I think, you know, we've got time to change those minds.

RUBY:

This was the first time that the No vote has had more overall support than the Yes campaign since Newspoll began tracking support. Can you tell me a bit more about what you think is influencing that result? What is influencing voters to indicate that they would vote against the Voice to Parliament?

THOMAS:

Well, we know that Australians don't like seeing all of the fighting in Parliament and all of that horrible debate. It's not something that enamoured Australians to a particular issue. When you've got Dutton saying that this is re-racialising Australia and you know you've got Pauline Hanson featuring and all of that and that's why we're really glad that this is out of the Canberra bubble somewhat on the 2nd of July. So on Sunday we've got over 150 events all around the country. We're getting our visibility out there. You know, everybody's getting a shirt and people are starting to put the signs up at the front of their homes. And you know, we encourage people to do more of that because I think when that momentum of, you know, support gets out there in a stronger way, then, you know, it's going to start to shift things back our way.

RUBY:

And do you think that visibility has been an issue for the Yes campaign? Because that has been one of the criticisms so far that there has been this lack of visibility and perhaps cohesion as well. Noel Pearson, for example, who is one of the leading architects of The Voice, he said that the Yes movement lacks a clear message. So is he right and is a change needed in strategy?

THOMAS:

I don't think a change is needed in strategy, but yes, it's true that we have not got that visibility out there well enough in, you know, in these previous months. But that’s certainly starting to turn around now. There's so many supporter groups that are starting all over the place. We're getting those networks into place and they're doing the work. You know, and I've met a lot of them travelling around. I'm constantly travelling from state to state and town to town, city to city, and meeting these people that are just ordinary Australians, getting out there and spreading that visibility and doing the work.

Early last year I thought it would be good to write a handbook for Australians that are unsure or supporters but want more information to help them get out there and have those conversations. And so late last year I got into gear and thought I needed a co-author. I wanted a non-Indigenous co-author, so invited Kerry O'Brien, and we wrote this book called The Voice to Parliament Handbook. All the details You Need. We published it on the 17th of May through Hardie Grant and on Bookscan. It is the number one bestseller for, I think for a couple of weeks now. And so it's something that indicates Australians want, you know, direct, honest information in a clear and succinct way and there's plenty of it out there on websites and for free and all that. But this little handbook with some cartoons by Cathy Wilcox has really hit the mark.

RUBY:

And you mentioned the way that the debate has played out in Canberra in Parliament recently. And I did want to ask you about that because you yourself have been brought up in that debate by the Coalition.

Archival tape – Speaker 4:

“The First Nations Working Group member, and yes, 23 Director Thomas Mayo has stated that we keep going, we maintain this momentum until we change the system, until we tear down the institutions.”

RUBY:

In Parliament, some comments that you made about The Voice several years ago were raised where you'd made the case that the voice could be a step towards more radical justice for Indigenous Australians. So including reparations for the crimes of colonisation potentially changing the date of Australia Day.

Archival tape – Speaker 4:

“Given that the ministers responsible for the working group and the people on that working group, does she agree with Mr. Mayo's statement? Order! Order!”

RUBY:

First of all, can you just tell me what you made of the fact that these comments got rehashed and brought up in the way that they did?

THOMAS:

You know, they were brought up in a way that is obviously designed to try and scare people. I mean, I acknowledge that these were comments made by myself, but they were made in the heat of the moment. You know, these were times if you look at when these comments were made, they were made when, you know, there was another death in custody or another Closing the Gap report came out with continuing failures and widening gaps. They came out when terrible decisions were being made or comments by politicians in parliament that were completely unjustified about Indigenous people and who we are and what our needs are. And just not listening to us. And so, you know, there were comments in the heat of the moment. You know, they're not what I believe. I believe that this voice is about health and education. It's about closing the gap. It's about being listened to. All those things that we are frustrated about as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And the voice is a solution. You know, a voice is a way to start to, you know, change this narrative in Australia of a widening gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. They're going to continue to use those things throughout the campaign. I'm ignoring them. I hope most people ignore them and see it for what it is. And that's, you know, passion for my people and for gaining equality in this country where we're no longer expected to die ten years younger than other Australians, you know, where we're no longer the most incarcerated people on the planet. I mean, of course I get passionate about that. You know, it's my own community and it's my own families.

RUBY:

And in a way, though, the fact that this has come up, doesn't it reveal a difficulty that the Yes campaign is faced with. Because on the one hand, those points that you have made in the past, they could appeal to people who are cynical about the voice’s ability to create real change. But the Yes campaign is keen to portray the voice as something that won't necessarily cause those kinds of big changes, that it's a modest proposal and it's about constitutional recognition. So do you feel like the Yes campaign is in a bit of a bind here, not able to fully appeal to people who might be scared of change or those who are cynical about whether it represents enough change?

THOMAS:

Well, undoubtedly, we're the underdogs in this, you know, because it's harder to get those messages of hope and vision through compared to just plain scare mongering and just stirring up confusion. This is different, what we're doing here. And change is always hard for any populace, but we need to do something different because everything else that has been tried has failed.

The last Closing the Gap report only several weeks ago showed that only four out of 19 measures are on target and some of them are getting worse. It's not rhetoric to say that the gap is widening. It actually is. And so, you know, I mean, there's a massive amount of taxpayer dollars that has been spent on trying to close the gap. And we continue to fail. And what we know from the evidence is that when Indigenous people are part of the design of the policies and the programs from their inception, then that's when we get the best results. It's a no brainer, you know, that we would create this voice. It's an advisory body.

If we're claiming things that are radical and, you know, not agreeable to the Australian public, then our representatives that we all elect are not going to agree to those things. But if we're presenting advice that is driven from the people that, you know, we're affected by these decisions every day, that are affected by the issues personally on the ground, in the communities that know what is worked and what hasn't, that are not speaking as politicians, you know, representing a political party. But as just people in the community through representatives on this voice. You know, all evidence shows that we're going to get better results.

RUBY:

We'll be back in a moment.

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Archival tape – Lidia Thorpe:

“We are the original and only sovereigns of these lands. We are saying No to the referendum and No to the Voice.”

RUBY:

Can I ask you about independent Senator Lidia Thorpe? She recently announced, of course, that she'll support the No campaign.

Archival tape – Lidia Thorpe:

“We have never agreed to be governed by the colonial Australian governments and we do not acquiesce.”

RUBY:

Her argument is that the voice is a self-determined body and that she doesn't want to be part of what she calls the colonial constitution.

Archival tape – Lidia Thorpe:

“And the attempt to rule over us and land. This is not an invitation.”

RUBY:

Can you tell me what you make of her case against the voice?

THOMAS:

Oh, well, look, Lidia is an independent. That's her choice. You know, I don't want to waste any time talking about her position. I think she's got every right to have her position. I don't agree with it. And I think most Australians don't agree with it. And I know that most Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people don't agree with it because there's a number of polls that show that over 80% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people support this. I was in Barunga a few weeks ago for the anniversary of the Barunga Statement and I was with representatives of the remotest communities in the Northern Territory and they made the Barunga voice declaration calling on Australians to vote yes to this because they don't want to see their voice taken away at the stroke of a pen again, which has happened many times throughout our history. And that's the thing that really informs us that we need to enshrine our voice in the Constitution as the form of recognition that we're calling for.

RUBY:

Are you worried, though, that the decision that she's made, the position that she's taking, will influence the outcome of the referendum?

THOMAS:

Yeah, Well, she's, you know, one less vote and her supporters potentially will follow her in that way. You know, there's little we can do about that. We've got to talk to Australians that are fair minded and that will listen to us and that want to listen to Indigenous people because they know the best outcomes are achieved when they do.

RUBY:

And I mean, it's obvious that this is a critical moment for the Yes campaign and for the country, but there are, of course, several months to go before we reach the point of a national vote or a referendum. So can you tell me about the conversations that you are now going to be having between this moment and polling day and where your hope lies right now?

THOMAS:

Well, I'm going to work every day until the referendum, and I hope that other Australians make that commitment. I will be having conversations with as many people as I can in conferences and forums, just doorknocking or just talking to people on the street. You know, the taxi drivers or whatever. We need to do that work to win this. And in that regard, I want to point out the massive amount of hard work that has been done by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people ourselves to give us this opportunity for this moment in time where we can recognise a proud 60,000 year old Indigenous heritage and culture. We have tried and tried again since 1901 to be heard. We have called for representative bodies many times in other statements and petitions. We've set them up ourselves or convinced governments to establish representation such as the NACC or ATSIC. And every time we have the next government that comes along just changes the policy and silences that voice as the Aboriginal people in Barunga said. They take it away with the stroke of a pen. Those are lessons that we've learnt and when we came together at Uluru we considered those lessons and we did the hard work to reach a consensus. And then when Malcolm Turnbull, the Coalition dismissed it back in 2017, we did the hard work to get out there and convince the Australian people to work with us enough to reach this moment where we've got a referendum. It's been a massive amount of hard work and I'm going to keep working and I hope others will join us.

I believe that we have it in us Australian people to come together even in hard times. And you know, these are hard times for many Australians with the cost of living, you know, the rent crisis, many issues that we're facing just to survive from day to day. And I believe that Australians are courageous people. I believe that Australians are fair minded people. We've got great empathy and I think that despite all of that, we're brave enough to make this change, you know, and we can do more than one thing at a time. We need to continue to address the broader issues and challenges that we face as Australians at the same time as fixing this problem that we have had for more than 200 years. It's time to stop ignoring Indigenous people and we can recognise them at the same time as everything else that we need to do to build a better future.

RUBY:

Thomas, thank you so much for your time this morning.

THOMAS:

Thank you, Ruby.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today …

Inflation has fallen faster than expected, sinking back to 5.6 percent in May, from 6.8 percent in April.

Markets were expecting a more moderate drop in the consumer price index… to 6.1 percent.

The decline has been driven mostly by a fall in petrol prices, but the costs of food, housing and household equipment are still rising sharply.

And

A report from the US Justice department inspector general has concluded that Jeffrey Epstein was able to kill himself due to a combination of neglect and misconduct by authorities at a federal jail in New York City.

The disgraced financier died in his cell at the Metropolitan correctional centre in Manhattan in 2019, while awaiting trial on sex-trafficking charges.

Among the report's findings was that authorities failed to assign Epstein a cellmate, maintain working security cameras.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. See you tomorrow.

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