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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

Thomas Mayo, one of the most prominent “Yes” campaigners for the referendum, is still reeling from its defeat.

But after observing a week of silence along with other Indigenous leaders, he’s had time to reflect on the campaign’s loss and on his own regrets.

So, does he think Australia is better or worse off for having had the vote? And does he want another referendum?

Today, “Yes” campaigner Thomas Mayo on what went wrong, who’s to blame, and what comes next.

It’s Monday, October 23rd.

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Audio excerpt – ABC Reporter:

“Let’s go back now to Isabella Higgins at West Ashfield Leagues Club with Thomas Mayo.”

Audio excerpt – Isabella Higgins:

“Thanks Bridget, as you could imagine it's an enormous disappointment.”

ANGE:

So, Thomas, we all saw you on TV on referendum night. You were being interviewed just as the result happened, and you were immediately reacting to it. And it struck me how composed you were in that moment. Despite learning of this loss.

Audio excerpt – Isabella Higgins:

“Can you explain what’s running through your head at this moment?”

Audio excerpt – Thomas Mayo:

“Hmm…I am devastated, I know there are a lot of people that have done a lot of hard work, not just here in this room, but across Australia…”

ANGE:

I want to know what happened after, though. When the cameras turn off, the journalists leave. The event wraps up. Where did you go? Who did you call?

THOMAS:

Well, the first person I called was my wife to check in on my family to see how they were going. Yeah. And then just headed back to headquarters to be with a whole lot of the people that had done a lot of hard work, hmm, to try and get this across the line. But there was a lot of silence. People were pretty devastated. It was a tough night.

ANGE:

Mm. And when did the emotional impact of the result hit you personally?

THOMAS:

But it didn't hit me on the night so much more the next day when I checked in on my family again, and my wife mentioned how my son through the morning was saying how he felt calm as if it was something strange, you know, like that. It was remarkable for him to be saying that he was calm. You know, he was very upset and crying the night of the result.

And what we worked out was that he must have felt the weight of it all on his little shoulders throughout the campaign. You know, myself being away for almost every day of this year and since we had a commitment. So, you know our children tend to absorb everything even when we don't notice. When, when I realised just how much it weighs on him. Yeah. That was something that moved me a lot.

And and that's when I really got emotional at that point.

Audio excerpt – Chris Kenny:

“Well, thank goodness that's over. The Voice referendum has been one of the ugliest and most divisive political debates in the past 50 years. It was ugly because it became partisan. That is party political and it never should have.”

ANGE:

And indigenous leaders behind the Voice, including yourself, have had this week of silence. But while you've been silent, everyone else has been picking apart what happened? Talking about how it went this way. If it had something to do with the campaign or the timing. I wonder whether you think it was the right time to ask Australians to support constitutional recognition.

THOMAS:

Oh, well, I think it's always the right time because it's the right thing to do. We're probably not going to get another shot at it for generations now. But I think the early numbers in the polling indicated that, as I said, it's always the right time, but I believe that Australians were ready for it. And, you know, I think people can make all the excuses they like about whether or not this was the right time or the right proposal. But at the end of the day, this this was the decent thing to do. This was the right thing to do.

It was something that didn't threaten anybody in any way as far as their own personal, backyards and property and right to go to the beach and, you know, all of those things. The truth is the truth. And so I, I think I said this on the Saturday night, you know, reeling from the result really, any analysis needs to point out who actually lied to the Australian public. And I think that it was the right time. I think the Australian people were ready. But a lot of people would have voted no on the basis of what they were told that was a lie.

ANGE:

Who do you think is responsible for spreading those lies?

THOMAS:

Well, I think Peter Dutton, as a as a leader in this country, the opposite leader, has a lot to answer for. I had been campaigning for that referendum for six years and social media was really important. We had no campaign resources when it was initially dismissed back in October 2017. So social media was important to spreading the word and getting the momentum, the momentum to get one side of government to have the courage and vision to put it to the Australian people. And there was very little racism or attacks, in that entire time. And it lifted when a leader of this country falsely claimed that it would re-racialise Australia.

Audio excerpt – Peter Dutton:

“The Voice as proposed by the Prime Minister promotes difference. And it’s sadly a symptom of the madness of identity politics which has infected the 21st century. The Voice would re-racialise our nation at a time when we need to unite the country.”

THOMAS:

It wasn't about race at all. It was about Indigenous peoples. It was about us having a say when decisions are made specifically about us as if we are a different race. It was the call to the trolls and to the racists that were unleashed. And that's when it all began. So I think if you pair it all back to, the catalyst of the awful behaviour that we saw in politics in that period of time in the last six months, it all points back to Peter Dutton and his lack of care or lack of wanting to see the best for the nation and making about himself and his hopes for re-election in 2025.

ANGE:

Putting aside Peter Dutton and how the Opposition approached this debate, I mean, you've surely thought about what went wrong in the “Yes” campaign because it's natural to have those “what if” moments, right? So I'm wondering if you had your time over. What would you want the “Yes” campaign to do differently?

THOMAS:

Oh, there's a whole lot of things that I would do differently. And I, I am absolutely okay with saying that we could have done better. Me personally, I could have made some decisions that might have made a difference.

I mean, we can look at how the numbers played out across the country. We see that in rural areas, in regional areas, we got less of a vote than in the cities. That is a whole lot of mapping there about people that we didn't reach across the demographics. You know, social media, we certainly lost a lot of ground early.

But I don't agree that this was un-winnable. It's 60-40, so, you know, another 15% we might have got there. And as I said, I think Australians were ready. They just could not see through the noise and disinformation and they have a whole lot else going on in their lives.

And that's one of the reasons why we wanted a voice, because when it comes to Australian politics, we're, you know, we're the most disadvantaged, get the least cared for or talked about.

People don't vote on the basis of the poor decisions that politicians have made about Indigenous affairs.

But yeah, there's plenty that I think we could have done better. And so, you know, I'm not going to just throw blame at everyone else. But I think it is what it is now. And we just have to as a, as a people dust ourselves off. And that's what we've been doing in the last week and thinking about what's next.

ANGE:

Coming up – What comes next, in an Australia that’s said ‘No’ to the Voice.

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ANGE:

Thomas, Earlier this year, there were some rumours about the government considering delaying the referendum date because they saw support slipping. Were you part of those conversations with the government and did you try to delay the vote?

THOMAS:

No. The political advice that we got from various experts was that a delay would mean throwing away the opportunity. If there was a delay, it could have been just as long between now and when we'll get another shot at this and maybe in generations time if we had a delay. You know, one thing is absolutely certain is that we need a national representative body. We absolutely need that. And sure, it won't be something that's enshrined in the Constitution. But I think that that is something that we need to continue to advocate for is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, because we do have common issues across the entire continent. We do have this gap that can only be closed with coherent and efficient, effective national campaigns. And it's something that we need to continue to build on.

ANGE:

Right. So you're calling for a nationally representative body, something similar to the Voice, but not constitutionally recognised?

THOMAS:

Well, I'll put it this way. You know, Senator Price doesn't speak for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Indigenous people should be able to choose representatives to speak to the Federal Parliament about the policies that are effective and will close the gap. We should have that. We can see the results in the remote polling booths that Indigenous people in communities overwhelmingly supported this. And you've got a politician, you know, in the opposition about her political career saying that well basically falsely claiming that it wasn't supported even after we have those results.

So we need to be able to speak on behalf of ourselves in a proper and structured way. And, you know, politicians that have the political interests in mind, not the interests of the communities. They just don't do it. So we need that.

ANGE:

Do you worry about the challenges of establishing a nationally representative body and the political will that might not be there in the light of politicians in the whole country knowing that 60% of Australians don't support a body like The Voice?

THOMAS:

Well, certainly I know I am worried about that. Just when you were asking the question, it made me think of the words of Vincent Lingiari, who led the the Gurindji Wave Hill walk off that the Kevin Carmody and Paul Kelly song, is about from little things, big things grow. That's what he said. He said, “We know how to wait.” It was a nine year campaign for equal wages and then to get some land rights. It was denied initially over and over again. But he said, “we know how to wait.” And they built their little community in Daguragu and continued on. And it's what we've done for over 200 years now as Indigenous peoples, we know that we have a rightful place in this country. We know that we deserve justice. We know that we shouldn't have outcomes for our children that are far less than other Australians, and we're going to continue to work towards that.

ANGE:

Do you still think there should be some kind of constitutionally enshrined body which would take another referendum at a later date when the country is ready, or is that part of the Uluru Statement over?

THOMAS:

Look, I don't know. Again, I think that's up to, you know Indigenous people collectively to decide. But what I believe is that what we tried to do just last Saturday is inevitable in this country because it is right. It is something that must be done eventually. I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime, and I don't know if it's something that we're going to campaign for in the way that we did in my lifetime.

But the difference in life expectancy, the diseases that are in Indigenous communities, nowhere else. You know, the Voice would have made a massive difference to resolving those issues, to closing the gap. And I think, you know, it wasn't dependent on the Voice, but it would have happened quicker with it. So, you know, I hope that, you know, as people reflect on this in time to come, that it's not just the referendum that was lost, that it actually cost lives.

And in generations to come when children are learning in school about the history of this country, they will look at what happened on the 14th of October in 2023 and say, “They got it so wrong back then. They got it so wrong.” And it says I said on that Saturday night, that history is going to reflect badly on the likes of Peter Dutton for what he has done.

ANGE:

So is Australia better or worse off for having had this referendum?

THOMAS:

Well, I don't know. At least we know where we stand now. I think it puts a mirror to, to us, you know, and part of it is that we were too easily misled by the disinformation campaign that admittedly was very effective. So I think we're in a worse place as far as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people go. We're already seeing those forces that were against this decent and modest proposal using it for all its worth now to attack any gains that Indigenous people have made. So we're certainly in a worse place in that regard.

ANGE:

And Thomas, what will you remember fondly about this campaign? Because I know we've spoken about, you know, the the outcome and how you feel devastated by that result. But what will you hold on to as the achievements or the things that you're proud of from this campaign?

THOMAS:

I looked so many new friends, people that genuinely through everything at it, that worked every day, gave up at least an hour or two every day to try and see the referendum succeed. Just such such generous and loving people that, for all of the the doom and gloom of the loss, they were sort of just real gems in the rough. And also, I think, the Indigenous leadership that will come out of this, the young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people that stepped up throughout the campaign, that sort of cut their teeth in the campaign by, you know, giving speeches and, you know, delivering information, you know, in communities and and having conversations. That's something that I'll hold dear the young people that I worked with to to step up and to be involved.

But what I do really hope out of this is that the between six and 7 million Australians that voted yes, the over 70,000 volunteers that gave up their time on the weekends and were getting up early in the morning to leaflet at train stations. You know, the 40% of Australians that are walking with us now. I want them to continue to to join with us to get better outcomes, to back what Indigenous leaders are calling for in localised campaigns. And and once we establish what we're doing nationally, again, we need them to continue to work with us.

ANGE:

Thomas, thanks so much for your time today.

THOMAS:

Thanks Ange.

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ANGE:

Also in the news today -

On Saturday, a spokesperson for the Israeli Defense forces announced that attacks on targets in Gaza would increase.

Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said strikes would increase ahead of what he described as “the next stages of the war.”

And

Trade blocks on Australian wine by China are now expected to be largely removed, after a 5 month review by the Chinese government.

China had levied 220 per cent tariffs on Australian wine after Scott Morrison called for an investigation into the origins of Covid in 2020.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. We’ll be back again tomorrow.

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