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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

Peter Dutton is now on TikTok and his first post was about as inspiring as you might imagine.

Audio excerpt — Peter Dutton:

“I know my first TikTok is supposed to be fun and I probably should say something that is or isn’t demure. But I really joined TikTok for one reason. It’s to tell you that we do not have to live in a country where you spend your whole life renting.”

RUBY:

It’s easy to see this as a case of Steve Buscemi with a skateboard – trying to appeal to the kids. But it’s also a sign of a broader trend among Australian politicians. Around a third of them are on TikTok, with more likely to join.

Peter Dutton’s move to TikTok is especially curious, beyond his use of the word “demure”. It signals that he’s made a calculation that getting votes is more important than any security concerns about the company.

Today, special correspondent for The Saturday Paper Jason Koutsoukis on whether TikTok is actually a threat or just an opportunity for political embarrassment.

It’s Monday, September 23.

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RUBY:

Hello, Jason. How are you today?

JASON:

Ruby, I'm very well.

RUBY:

Nice to have you back on the show. So, Jason, I recently watched Peter Dutton's first attempt at TikTok, and I have some questions. The big one is why? Why does he or I guess his advisors, why do they think that this is a good idea?

JASON:

Well, I think firstly, this is a huge audience that are on TikTok. I think it's about 10 million Australians. Almost 37 per cent of the whole Australian population. That tends to be Australians who are in that 18 to 36 age group. And that's an audience that Peter Dutton can't afford to ignore.

In the 2022 election, the Labor Party used TikTok very effectively and the Coalition knows that and they know that they need to play catch up here.

RUBY:

Okay, But it's still a gamble I suppose, in the sense that it has to work to be successful. So do you think that it's even possible for someone like Peter Dutton, a politician in his 50s, with this fairly stiff public persona to actually do well on TikTok?

JASON:

Yeah, this is a really good question because Peter Dutton’s got quite a severe look and he's not a natural when it comes to talking on camera. He doesn't convey that warmth and kind of humour that comes so easily to other politicians.

Audio excerpt — David Crisafulli:

“I've come under a lot of criticism over my rejection of putting pineapple on pizza, and I'm not backing away from it. Not one iota. Pineapple doesn't belong on pizza.”

JASON:

So I think Peter Dutton's team would be looking to David Crisafulli, the leader of the LNP in Queensland who has used social media very effectively in the last few months and he's very likely to win the upcoming state election on October 26th.

Even more relevant is the new Prime Minister of New Zealand, Christopher Luxon. He's a bald conservative, not particularly photogenic politician who also used TikTok very successfully in his campaign last year.

Audio excerpt — Christopher Luxon:

“Hey, everyone, get ready with me for another day on the campaign trail. My morning starts first with the shirt. The choices are white, blue…”

JASON:

I think Christopher Luxon, you know, he's got those awkward personality traits perhaps that Peter Dutton has and he was able to overcome that and he'd post videos of himself getting dressed. There was one video where he's talking about, you know, skin care for his bald head.

Audio excerpt — Christopher Luxon:

“A lot of you have said to me, look Chris, you are a good looking bald man. How do you keep your skin in such good condition? Well, at least two tricks in my skincare regime. I have a daily moisturiser.”

JASON:

And, you know, he was able to really make fun of himself in a way that endeared him to New Zealand voters. So I think there's form there and Peter Dutton's team have clearly decided that he can try and do the same thing. He might seem awkward, but I guess he's just trying to be himself and that's probably the best thing that he can do, because if he tried to contrive some other sort of personality that would be even worse.

RUBY:

Yeah, the kids would be all over that. Okay so, Peter Dutton, he's not trying to be anything that he is and he's not alone in embracing TikTok. Tell me a bit about what other federal politicians are doing on the platform.

JASON:

The person with the most followers is Green's housing spokesman Max Chandler-Mather.

Audio excerpt — Max Chandler-Mather:

“So if you're like me and you've left your rental submission to the last minute, I'm going to talk you through how to make one. Some of my experiences as a renter and why it's so important that you make a submission.”

JASON:

He's got over 160,000 followers. I guess that's perhaps not so surprising. He's in the target sort of TikTok age group and he's also the housing spokesman. This is probably the hottest issue on TikTok.

Audio excerpt — Max Chandler-Mather:

“So he said that we would have to ask permission to use the yard or hang out our clothes in the yard and we'd have to constantly ask permission to do that. Obviously we were never going to sign a contract like that...”

JASON:

And then, you know, Labor's Julian Hill, who's been very outspoken about his embrace of TikTok for quite a long time. He's got the second highest number of followers at over 143,000.

The Liberal MP with the highest number of followers is Michael Sukkar. He's the Coalition's housing spokesman. He's only got 6000 followers. And then, you know, by way of comparison, you know, some of the independents are, you know, managing to sort of build strong audiences. Well, Pauline Hanson's got around 80,000 followers, Jacqui Lambie, about 30,000 followers, and Monique Ryan, the Teal MP who's the member for Kooyong. She's built an audience of 50,000 followers.

But there's one federal parliamentarian with by far and away the most momentum on TikTok right now, and that's Fatima Payman. She is, of course, the West Australian senator who defected from the Labor Party over their stance on Gaza and, you know, is now sitting in the Senate as an independent.

Audio excerpt — Fatima Payman:

“To the sigmas of Australia. I say that this goofy A government have been capping not just now but for a long time.”

JASON:

And since then she's built a following of over 95,000 people. And that's largely thanks to a video of this very unusual speech she gave in the Senate, which has sort of become known as the Skibidi speech.

Audio excerpt — Fatima Payman:

“If that becomes law, you can forgor skull emoji all about watching Duke Dennis or catching a dub with the bro's on Fort. Chat, is this prime minister serious?”

JASON:

It was this two minute speech filled with internet slang, which she says is used by Gen Z. But I wouldn't know that because I didn't understand a single word she was saying. But it attracted this incredible audience. I think it's got about 40 million views so far.

It's notable that the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is not on TikTok and it's going to be really interesting to see if and when he joins the platform because I think the fact that Peter Dutton has decided to be on there, despite the Liberal Party's long running opposition to TikTok, tells us that a calculation has been made and that no matter what the security concerns are, there's just too many people watching it. You cannot ignore that audience.

RUBY:

Coming up after the break, the Coalition’s anti-TikTok history and the star adviser to Anthony Albanese who now works for TikTok.

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RUBY:

Jason, there are more than a billion active monthly users on TikTok, and accordingly, it's becoming this hugely important campaigning tool, including in Australia. You've been tracking its use by politicians here, but at the same time there have been these security concerns about TikTok. So can you tell me about that?

JASON:

That's right. So TikTok is, of course, owned by a Chinese company called Bytedance. And there has been this concern that the Chinese government can force Bytedance to hand over any of the very valuable data that TikTok collects from its users. So, you know, responding to those concerns. In April last year, the Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus announced that there would be an immediate ban on TikTok being used on any government supplied device. You know, he was acting on advice that he had received from Australian intelligence and security agencies that there’s a high chance in their view that Bytedance is collecting all the data of TikTok users and possibly passing it on to the Chinese government. If the Chinese government wants that data and they're trying to guard against that by saying that anyone who wants to use TikTok has to do so on a separate phone, essentially a burner phone.

And it's worth adding that it's not just the Australian Government who are worried about this. India banned TikTok in 2020, The United Kingdom, Canada and New Zealand, many other countries in Europe also don't allow TikTok on government or politicians’ devices.

And then of course, in April this year, US President Joe Biden signed a law that would ban TikTok in the US unless it's divested from its parent company, Bytedance, within the year. And I think if we put a time clock on that, it's about within the next four months if this law is not overturned then Bytedance would have to divest TikTok if it wants to remain active in the United States.

TikTok is appealing this law. They're urging a US federal appeals court to overturn it. The irony, of course, is that they're making this argument that Joe Biden's law infringes TikTok's free speech. And, you know, it's ironic given that TikTok is owned by a Chinese company and there's no freedom of speech in China.

RUBY:

Okay. So banning TikTok on government phones is one thing, but a total ban like what might come into play in the US is a much more drastic step. So is there support for something like that in Australia?

JASON:

Well, you know, the strongest critics of TikTok have come from within Peter Dutton's own party. Opposition home affairs spokesperson James Paterson has been a strident critic of TikTok. He's also been very critical of other ways in which he feels that China is trying to compromise Australian security. And he has said that if the US successfully forces TikTok to be divested from Bytedance that Australia should seek to do the same.

You know, he was most critical of TikTok back in March this year. That's a good six months before Peter Dutton decided to get on board. And it's perhaps not surprising that we haven't heard him in the last few weeks being as critical of TikTok or raising any of the concerns that he's raised previously.

I think given that both Labor and the Coalition agree that TikTok poses a security risk to Commonwealth agencies and government employees and MPs, it remains to be seen how the US court case will influence the Australian Government's decision on whether or not to ban the platform here in Australia.

RUBY:

Okay. So how is TikTok handling this, this blowback from various governments and the prospect of bans?

JASON:

Well, in Australia, they are advertising. So if you drive to Canberra Airport, as all politicians do when they are leaving Canberra at the end of a sitting week, there's a huge billboard there which is advertising TikTok and all of the ways in which it helps Australians, particularly small business owners, you know, market their products.

They're also doing a lot of lobbying. In June this year they hired Sabina Husic. They added her to their government relations or lobbying team. Sabina Husic is of course the sister of Ed Husic, the federal Minister for Industry, a very senior cabinet minister.

Sabina also has her own very strong ties in Canberra, specifically to the Labor Party. She's a former deputy chief of staff to Anthony Albanese when when he was opposition leader she was also a key operative over many years to the former Victorian Labor premier Dan Andrews.

You know, she's a very well-connected Labor Party operative and she's now also likely to be a very well paid lobbyist working on behalf of TikTok around the country.

RUBY:

Okay. Well, it'll be interesting to see what effect that appointment might have.

But regardless, Jason, we're in this situation where there are real security concerns around the use of TikTok raised by both the government and the opposition. In spite of that, we're seeing more and more politicians getting their burner phones and getting on TikTok anyway, chasing every last vote. So I suppose the bigger question here is, should these politicians be doing this, given that this is an app affiliated with a foreign government in a country where there is no free speech?

JASON:

So if we put aside TikTok's legal troubles in the United States and whether or not the Chinese government wants to harvest the data that TikTok collects and use it for its own purposes, the US government would say its own nefarious purposes. One security expert that I spoke to said perhaps, you know, the real question here is should we even be on TikTok in the first place? And what are the principles involved here? And his argument to me was that at the end of the day, TikTok is a town hall environment where not everybody is welcome. And he's asking the question of Australian politicians and Australian citizens, are they comfortable getting onto a platform where Hong Kong protesters, Tibetans, Muslims from Western China or anyone else that's been critical of China and its human rights record is not welcome? And this person put it to me that his simple view was that Australians and Australian politicians just should not be on TikTok on principle.

RUBY:

Jason, thank you so much for your time.

JASON:

Ruby, as always, it's great to talk. Thanks very much.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today,

Three Aboriginal police officers have lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission, alleging racial vilification, derision and unequal pay by the Northern Territory police over a 20 year period for their work as Aboriginal community police officers.

The Northern Territory’s Police Commissioner Michael Murphy didn’t directly comment on the complaint but has reiterated his commitment to cultural reform in NT police, following his public apology to First Nations Territorians at the Garma Festival earlier this year.

AND

A 65-year old man has been arrested in Rome over the weekend, over the alleged murder of two women in Collingwood, Melbourne in 1977.

27-year-old Suzanne Armstrong and 28 year old Susan Bartlett were found stabbed multiple times in a shocking double murder that has come to be known as “The Easey Street murders”.

Homicide detectives have been trying to solve the case for almost 50 years, making it the longest cold case in the state.

Victorian Police Commissioner Shane Patton says police intend to charge the man with two counts of murder and one charge of rape. He said he hopes the arrest brings the women’s families closer to the answers they deserve.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am. Thanks for listening.

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