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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am

The one year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is fast approaching.

The Ukrainian region of Zaporizhzhia has been a battleground for months, now, it’s the target of Russia’s newest offensive – and fighting there could be about to get a lot worse.

Archival tape -- News Reporter:

“Russian forces could mount a massive offensive once the spring comes…”

RUBY:

Ukrainian forces are readying a defense, but the war effort in this part of southeastern Ukraine, involves more than fighting back on the frontlines…

NATALYA:

In the beginning of the war, I remember many people, they would write, like, “maybe it's a bad nightmare. I want to wake up.”

RUBY:

Dr Natalya Mosol is a psychologist, and for the past year, she’s been working with people who have seen the worst of the war.

NATALYA:

You know, they always say that first you lose the feeling of time. And it's actually true.

RUBY:

Natalya specialises in therapy for children and families, and the stories she’s hearing from them now, are unlike anything she’s heard before.

NATALYA:

This other girl, they were playing, and she stayed there, she was killed. So now this other girl, she is asking, where is my friend? And the Mother says, “I can't say what happened to her.”

RUBY:

But there’s a tool that psychologists like Natalya are turning to, Trauma-focused cognitive behavioural therapy, and experts from around the world – including Australia – are working with psychologists like Natalya, to deliver the therapy across Ukraine.

Today, Dr Natalya Mosol from the National University of Zaporizhzhia, on the challenges of offering psychological support, when the war is still raging around you.

It’s Tuesday, January 24

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RUBY:

To begin with, could you introduce yourself?

NATALYA:

Okay. So my name is Natalya Mosol, and I am a psychologist, and I work with family and children mostly. And I live in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine.

RUBY:

So what is it like right now in Zaporizhzhia, where you live?

NATALYA:

Okay. So now in Zaporizhzhia, it's like, 35 kilometres from where fighting is going on.

RUBY:

That's very close. 35 kilometres. That's not far.

NATALYA:

Yes, actually it is. And we are one of the regions where we always have warnings, and we have fighting, and 70 percent of our region is under occupation. So actually, it's one of the regions where we have very, very many difficulties, I would say.

So ordinarily, like today, I have a child and she has her classes, and so the woman came and they said, “okay, the warning, we hope no bombings.” So, you know.

RUBY:

So the warning was a warning for bombs. That's what the warning was?

NATALYA:

Yes. We have a special program. And if we have some threats, now we have this warning. Usually it will stop the education process, like at schools or in the universities. But it became part of regular life.

RUBY:

So it's your regular life, but it's also a war. So you're doing your work, and taking children to school, but on any given day you are in danger because there could be a bombing.

NATALYA:

Yes. And actually, you know, just recently, we have a very good text from one of the famous soldiers of Ukraine — he is also a blogger — and he really said that everyone who stayed knows that every day you can die. Just recently we had a bombing, and an apartment in the city Dnipro was destroyed, with 1,000 apartments, and many families, they were just killed, and it was just the weekend, you know? So actually, any time you can be killed actually. It's just part of the life of that, you know, that it can happen or maybe not. And you live just knowing that.

RUBY:

So you're a psychologist, trying to do your work in a war zone. What are the challenges of that, of trying to provide care right now, how are you and your colleagues trying to do that?

NATALYA:

So mostly it would be online work, for now. Because it's not really safe to have personal meetings in this region. And of course, one of the rules is, you should deal with trauma when you have safe settings. And for many people, they are still in a very unsafe situation. But again, you have more requests for psychological assistance and work. So for example, many, many psychologists, they work as a volunteer, or for some professional platforms, and so do I. I work as a volunteer. I do some volunteering, and I also work for The All-Ukrainian platform, where we help families and children. And so many of them are related to trauma.

RUBY:

I suppose the difficulty here is that this isn't all in the past. You're trying to help people with the trauma of what's happened to them in the past year, but you're trying to do that while they're still in danger. And the thing that is traumatising them — which is the war itself — isn't over. Does that make things very difficult?

NATALYA:

Yes, and I do remember in the beginning of the war, when we had little understanding that it can go for over a year. And so we had many counselling from psychologists from Israel, America, Australia, and one of their main ideas was that you need to help in safe settings. But it's not possible. So here we try to do our best to support, because you need to deal with the trauma you have now. And so, yes, it is a problem. Sometimes even when I have consultation, you know, you hear bombing or heavy sounds, I understand that it may be difficult as well.

RUBY:

So there's bombings happening around people as you're in the counselling session with them?

NATALYA:

Sometimes, yes. And you never know when it's going to happen. So it's kind of an unpredictable situation. People try to do their best, but sometimes it happens. Yeah, so you can just have the consultation, and then you have this sound, you stay, and you calm down, and then you go through it again. It's just there with the life we have now. It’s become part of ordinary life.

RUBY:

We’ll be back in a moment.

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RUBY:

Natalya, you’ve been working as a psychologist, trying to help people - children in particular - who are living with the trauma of the ongoing war in Ukraine. What stories are you hearing from the people who you're talking to, from the children?

NATALYA:

This is a story of a six year old girl. She was, you know, just smiling and playing as a little kid. And you would never imagine that she survived through many difficult situations. And then I spoke to her mother, for example, and she told me that they spent over two weeks in the basement near Irpin. This is a very famous place where, in Bucha, many, many, many people were killed there. The story was that the father of this family decided to try to move, to run from that place, and they succeeded. They said it was very difficult, because they would travel through Russian armies, and they saw all the guns and the weapons, and there was bombing. But they actually went to another country. Their father, he decided to help those neighbours who were there. He went back, he was killed, they never saw him again. And so now this girl — she is so bright — but she lost her father.

And so when I was working with this girl, they actually found the body of their father and they had a funeral. It was six months after he was killed. But at least they had the opportunity to have a special ceremony and to say goodbye to him.

RUBY:

And that story, you said that happened in Bucha? And we know that things that happened in Bucha were terrible. There were there were mass killings of Ukrainians during the Russian occupation there, and there was torture. There's evidence of war crimes. So, to witness those types of things, how do you help a person process that?

NATALYA:

You know, it's very important just to give the opportunity to talk about that. Because sometimes people would say, “Oh, we don't need to talk. We don't want to talk, why should I?” And actually many people, they saw things very difficult. About killing, about their personal story, about starving, about losing everything. So just to hear that, it would be also helpful. And, you know, it's very important also that this story should be told in a professional setting, I would say. Because if the person can tell these stories to other people, and if those who would hear it are unprepared, it can also traumatise them.

RUBY:

And Natalya, is it possible, do you think, for a whole country to heal from the trauma of a war? Is it truly possible for that to happen in Ukraine, given the horror of some of what has happened — like what happened in Bucha — and what continues to happen, the ongoing fighting, the ongoing bombings?

NATALYA:

You know, I think like, for example, I have many friends — they are not in Ukraine now — but they were in the beginning of the war, and they would say “how how can you stay there? It's impossible to handle the situation.” So I would say, yes, many people, they do have resilience. But they are not victims. I hope they will be survivors and they will feel that. And also we had the previous experience of the war, for example, my grandmother, grandfather, all of them, they survived through the war. And actually I remember, when I was a kid, there were so many stories about how they survived. And of course, we hope that there never would be something like war in our time, but we could see their strength as well. And you know, we always saw that they are much stronger compared to us, because they did survive. So I think it really helps that there are many, many platforms, and many international help in order to provide assistance. Right now it's very necessary.

RUBY:

Yeah. I wanted to. I ask you about that because the world is sending weapons to Ukraine at the moment to help in the resistance. But how important is it for psychological care to be available for Ukraine and for this kind of therapy to get international support?

NATALYA:

You know, we always say that we have different frontlines, and the psychological frontline is very important as well. Because we are not prepared for this. You know, I am sure that we don't have enough professionals for now, because there is a huge need. So I just want to say that it is very helpful to have these tools, and to have this support, and supervision in order to provide the best qualified professional support, and counselling, and assistance.

RUBY:

And I suppose there is really no end in sight, is there? For how long this kind of help, and the work that you're doing will be needed, and how much longer the war might go on for. So what are your hopes for the future?

NATALYA:

You know, I just, we all hope that it will be finished. But again, you need to deal with the issues that you have. And now in Ukraine, the main task of the psychologist, I believe, is to help. And also, I work with students and I would say many students have said that these situations “help me” to understand that I want to be in the profession, and I want to be a good professional. It definitely checks your value system, you know. It helps to understand what is more important, and what price you ready to pay for some things?

RUBY:

Well, Natalya, thank you so much for talking to me about all of this today.

NATALYA:

Thank you for asking. Because I always believe, you know, that the stories are very important. So thank you. And all the best.

RUBY:

You can read more about Dr Natalya Mosol and her work in Jane Caro’s article ‘Treating trauma in Ukraine’s children’ in the latest edition of The Saturday Paper.

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RUBY:

Also in the news today,

10 people were shot dead during a mass shooting at a Lunar New Year celebration in Monterey Park near Los Angeles.

A further ten people were injured when the shooter, a 72 year old man, opened fire in a ballroom dance studio.

The shooter was later found dead, reportedly, of self-inflicted gunshot wounds.

Police have not confirmed a motive for the attack, which took place in a majority Asian-American community.

And former Education Minister Chris Hipkins will be the next Prime Minister of New Zealand. Hipkins won the Labour leadership uncontested, after Jacinda Ardern’s surprise resignation last week.

Hipkins will stand for re-election later this year, alongside new Deputy Prime Minister Carmel Sepuloni, the first Pasifika person to hold the role.

I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am, see you tomorrow.

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