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DANIEL:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Daniel James, this is 7am.

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was top of Israel’s most wanted list for his role as the architect of the October 7 attacks.

Before he was killed last week, he had managed to evade Israeli intelligence all year. He was thought to be hidden in the tunnels under Gaza, possibly using hostages as human shields.

But it wasn’t sophisticated intelligence that did him in in the end. His death came as something of a surprise, the relatively junior soldiers who killed him didn’t know who he was until later.

Regardless, Sinwar’s death represents a significant win for Israel, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu describing it as a “settling of the score”.

Today, host of the ABC podcast Take Me To Your Leader and former Middle East correspondent Hamish Macdonald – on Yahya Sinwar’s legacy and how his death will reshape the conflict in the Middle East.

It’s Monday, October 21.

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DANIEL:

Hamish, as we know, Israeli troops killed Yahya Sinwar last week. Can you tell me how it happened?

HAMISH:

Yeah, pretty extraordinary set of circumstances. And in a way, the ultimate scenario came about by accident.

It was actually a fairly junior brigade of Israeli troops that stumbled upon him initially. It was a drone that flew into an abandoned building in the Gaza Strip, and they found a fighter, a militant inside.

Audio Excerpt - News Reporter:

“It was IDF reservists, not special ops, who came across in what, by chance during a routine operation in Rafah yesterday, flying that drone into a building after a gun battle, spotting an armed man sitting in a chair, his face covered. His hand bleeding, after being shot.”

HAMISH:

When you look at the video and bearing in mind Israel has released the video footage from the drone, it's not obvious that it is Yahya Sinwar. His head’s wrapped in a keffiyeh scarf. He's covered in dust. And then there's this moment where after staring at the drone for quite a number of seconds, he then throws a stick towards it. It's, you know, a futile attempt. But obviously, many in Gaza are interpreting it as a final act of defiance.

Audio Excerpt - Unknown Speaker:

“Hamas, which is reeling from the killing, has accused the Israeli military of blatant lies and a failed theatrical performance in its portrayal of Sinwar.”

HAMISH:

Moments later, we're told there was a strike on that building. There's also some reporting suggesting that an Israeli soldier entered and shot him. It was afterwards that they noticed the resemblance to Yahya Sinwar And there's a number of features apparently that they were looking for. One of which was his distinctive teeth. They then took DNA samples away. And, of course, Sinwar had been in prison in Israel for many years, so they have DNA samples of him. Those were tested and Israel's confirmed that it was, in fact, Yahya Sinwar. But given the incredible intelligence and military effort that had been put in over the last year to finding and killing Sinwar, it's pretty remarkable that it happened this way, in the end.

DANIEL:

Hamish, you’ve profiled Yahya Sinwar, what can you tell me about him?

HAMISH:

So Sinwar is a pretty fascinating character because his story really mirrors the longer arc of the Palestinian story. You know, he was brought up in one of these refugee camps in the Gaza Strip. His parents had been dispossessed early on. And really, the chapters of his life mirror the various stages of fighting and conflict and then sort of dulling down acrimony at different times.

He's been in prison a number of times in Israeli prisons, but really where he emerged as a figure within the militancy of the Gaza Strip was in the early days, the early stages of Hamas.

And really, he was an enforcer. Part of his role was to identify, look for and then punish anyone that was seen to be a collaborator with the Israelis. And so he actually earned this nickname the Butcher of Khan Yunis, which is part of the Gaza Strip in relation to the deaths of four Palestinians. They were said to be or alleged to be collaborating with the Israelis. They were identified and brutally killed. And so those four deaths as well as the deaths of two Israeli soldiers that ultimately led him to being captured by the Israelis, interrogated and then ended up in an Israeli prison for a pretty significant amount of time.

DANIEL:

So what do you know about that time in prison and how it shaped him?

HAMISH:

It was formative and a lot has been written and said about this because during that time, he started to identify with other Palestinians that were held in the Israeli prison system. But he also learnt and studied Hebrew. He studied Israeli and Jewish history and culture. He really wanted to use that time to get to know what he saw as his enemy, he thought this was a strategic way of getting his head around what their vulnerabilities and weaknesses were.

We spoke to the guy that interrogated him.

Audio Excerpt - Michael Koubi:

“You are speaking now direct with the interrogator of Sinwar. I knew him better than his mother and mother. Better than anybody in the world.”

HAMISH:

His name is Michael Koubi. He's a former senior intelligence officer, eventually led the Shin Bet.

He said that he got to know Sinwar better than his mother did, better than he probably knew himself. Such was the depth of those interrogations.

Audio Excerpt - Hamish Macdonald:

“How many hours in total did you interrogate Yahya Sinwar for?”

Audio Excerpt - Michael Koubi:

“I interrogated all the Hamas leaders, including Yahya Sinwar. He himself I interrogated more than 180 hours during two months. And of course, I started speaking with him. He said, if you want to kill me, kill me. I want to be a shahid. That was the first sentence that he said that interrogation.”

Audio Excerpt - Hamish Macdonald:

“Shahid is a martyr.”

Audio Excerpt - Michael Koubi:

“Yeah. That's right. So I told him, look, you are not going to be Shahid.”

HAMISH:

So what's really striking about the comments from Michael Koubi when I sat down and spoke to him this year is that these interrogations that he conducted with Sinwar took place in 1988. So we're talking about decades ago. And what he points out is that he then said he wanted to be a martyr.

Audio Excerpt - Michael Koubi:

“So I took him immediately to my room. Yahya Sinwar started opening his mouth and he told me about the Hamas, about their plan, how they want to enter to Israeli kibbutzim, to Israeli settlement, to Israeli cities, how they built their power at that time that they haven't got missiles yet. They have only arms and weapons that they got from Sinai. You know, he told me that they plan to kill many, many Jews. That was the plan.”

HAMISH:

And he also detailed specific plans that he had in his mind for storming over outside of Gaza into southern Israel, going into the kibbutz and killing and taking prisoners from southern Israel. So I guess given what's happened on October 7th and since, puts that into a vastly sharper light.

DANIEL:

In 2011 Yahya Sinwar was released as part of a massive prisoner swap. Israel freed more than a thousand prisoners in exchange for a single Israeli soldier who had been captured by Hamas. Once out, Sinwar rose through the ranks of Hamas, becoming the military leader in Gaza, before taking over as political and military leader earlier this year.

After the break, the future of Hamas now that Sinwar is gone.

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DANIEL:

Hamish, now that Yahya Sinwar is dead, what does that mean for Hamas?

HAMISH:

So the death of Sinwar is a serious blow to Hamas, but of course it does not kill off Hamas as an organisation. There will be a new leader, but at the moment it's not obvious exactly who it will be.

What some are hoping, is that this moment may present an opportunity for Israel to deal with whoever the new leader or leaders are that emerge to offer them some kind of relief, if you like, from the conflict, even, you know, some assurance that they won't be killed in return for the remaining hostages.

Audio Excerpt - Benjamin Netanyahu:

“Hamas is holding 101 hostages in Gaza who are citizens of 23 countries. Citizens of Israel but citizens of many other countries. Israel is committed to do everything in our power to bring all of them home. And Israel will guarantee the safety of all those who returned our hostages, but to those who would harm our hostages, I have another message: Israel will hunt you down and bring you to justice.”

HAMISH:

That said, given where this conflict is, it's possible that Israel simply makes the decision that it has Hamas on the back foot, that it is, bit by bit, taking out the leadership and the capabilities of Hamas and that it can find its own way to those hostages.

But there’s an entirely different part to this question, which is not just about what the practical implications are for Hamas and whether Hamas has been damaged through the death of Sinwar. But Israel itself has this discussion often about whether what's happened since October 7th is actually destroying, pulling apart the idea of Hamas or simply emboldening it.

I mean, we obviously know that the numbers of civilians killed in Gaza since October 7th. But there's also young people that are living through this and surviving. What does this experience do to them?

Does this make them afraid of Israel in the future or does this give them some kind of strength and resolve to continue the fight that Yahya Sinwar has so clearly marked out? You know, part of the calculation for Israel right now is it's trying to say to the neighbourhood the penalty for acting against us, for threatening us is too great. Whether or not that's the way it's being interpreted, I think it's too soon for us to know.

DANIEL:

How do you think the death of Sinwar will change Israel’s plans in the region?

HAMISH:

Clearly, this does change things. But similarly, you know, there's also fresh reporting out about an intelligence leak from the United States over the weekend that shows that Israel has preparations in place to strike at Iran directly. There's been no letup in the fighting against Hezbollah in Lebanon. There's also been no real sign that fighting's led up in the Gaza Strip either. So, you know, clearly there is this intention to get the hostages back. But given you know, I keep going back to some of the initial conversations I had with current and former Israeli intelligence and military leaders in the days after October 7th.

And you'll also remember some of this from Netanyahu's own public commentary. He talked about wanting to create a new reality for Israel in the Middle East, that whatever it was, you know, before October 7th would not be the case after. And so I think it's always worth bearing that in mind in terms of trying to judge or estimate what it is that Netanyahu and the Israeli military are prepared to do in terms of seeking the outcomes that they want. There's been so much pressure domestically in Israel all the way along. You know, it's not one homogenous grouping. There's a lot of disagreement. You know, remember, there was a there was a war cabinet that's fallen apart. There's also a kind of creaky coalition government in place. But Netanyahu's popularity ratings in Israel, it must be said, you know, have really bounced back in recent months as as he's stepped up a gear in terms of taking the fight, particularly to Hezbollah.

DANIEL:

Hamish, does this moment get us closer to a ceasefire or lasting peace?

HAMISH:

Look, there's some that hope it will. Certainly in Washington, the optimism is probably too strong a term. But the fact that Sinwar was so critical to any decisions around hostage releases, remember that even though he was underneath Gaza in this tunnel system for many months, using human couriers to get messages to and from him back to negotiators in Doha. He was the individual who had the decision on any hostage release. And it may be, it may be possible that whoever replaces him may take a different view, that perhaps this is an opportunity for a different course to be charted. But certainly the messaging that's coming out of Hamas and and its backers like Iran would not suggest that that now is necessarily a mood or a climate for peace.

DANIEL:

Hamish, thank you so much for your time.

HAMISH:

Thanks for having me.

DANIEL:

You can listen to Hamish Macdonald’s profile of Yahya Sinwar on his podcast Take Me To Your Leader. The new season is all about dictators and demagogues and it’s now.

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DANIEL:

Also in the news today,

Prabowo Subianto has been sworn in as Indonesia’s new president.

Subianto replaces outgoing president Joko Widodo, who has led the world’s third-largest democracy for the past decade.

73 year old President Subianto is a former special forces commander, who won the February election with nearly 60 per cent of the vote.

And, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that the people who attempted to assassinate him by targeting his home with a drone have made a “bitter mistake”.

Neither he or his wife were home at the time of the attempted attack, according to a spokesman for the Prime Minister.

While Hezbollah did not claim responsibility for the drone attack, the group said it carried out several rocket attacks on Northern and central Israel.

I’m Daniel James, this is 7am, thanks for listening, and if you haven’t yet, please take a listen to the three part series we aired last week, it’s called This is Alice Springs and it’s in your feed now.

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