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RUBY:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ruby Jones, this is 7am.

No matter your politics, there's never been a politician who can wield an insult quite like former Labor Prime Minister Paul Keating.

Audio Excerpt - John Hewson:

“I ask the Prime Minister, if you are so confident about your view of a fight back, why won’t you call an early election?”

Audio Excerpt - Paul Keating:

“The answer is mate, mate because I want to do you slowly. I want to do you slowly.”

RUBY:

Keating set the standard for eviscerating his opponents.

He once called the coalition front bench scumbags, said John Howard was getting so wound up he needed a Valium, and described Peter Costello as having "all the attributes of a dog, except loyalty".

Audio Excerpt - Paul Keating:

“You all sat there last night while I reamed you out point by point. Reamed you out. You are sitting up there under bell bow ties, the steam was coming out…”

RUBY:

But lately Keating, and a growing band of old time Labor men, are directing their barbs at their own. Privately and publicly criticising the Albanese government on their policies and priorities.

Today, special correspondent for The Saturday Paper Jason Koutsoukis, on the party elders’ problems with Labor and how their critiques are landing.

It’s Friday, October 18.

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RUBY:

So, Jason, I thought we could begin by talking about this group of Labor Party elders who seem to be loosely banding together with some shared gripes about the current Labor Party. Tell me, who are they?

JASON:

So these are all veterans, Ruby, from the, the Hawke-Keating governments from the 1980s and the 1990s. And the core of this group is the former Prime Minister, Paul Keating; John Faulkner, who was the leader of the senate for the Labor Party; And Barry Jones, who was of course, a very, you know, prominent minister in the Hawke government; and Bob Carr, the former New South Wales premier. He grew up in the Labor movement with Paul Keating and and John Faulkner so he's, he's very much a part of that old guard as well.

And, you know, what I've been told is that that core group getting together for lunch in Sydney once a month. And it seems that a regular topic for discussion is how disappointed they are in the Albanese government and the lack of progress the Government is making on issues that are dear to them. Environmental policy; this proposed reform to gambling advertising; they also have in common the fact that they don't like the AUKUS policy so that seems to have been a feature of, of discussion among these, kind of, these Labor wise men who feel that, you know, Australia shouldn't be tying itself so closely to the United States.

And I think in Paul Keating's case, he's particularly concerned that Australia seems to be giving up its sovereignty.

RUBY:

Okay, so we've got these, quote, wise men of Labor, party elders critiquing Australia's relationship with the US, critiquing the AUKUS deal. Can you tell me a bit more about the tenor and tone of those critiques and where they're being made?

JASON:

Well, I think they're being made in private and in public. You know, if we start with Paul Keating, you know, he's not afraid to do a lot of media.

Audio Excerpt - Paul Keating:

“You know, the idea that we need American submarines to protect us. You know, three, if we buy eight, three are at sea. Three are going to protect us from the might of China, really? I mean, the rubbish of it. The rubbish. So, in other words, let me say this. China has not threatened us despite...”

JASON:

In private he's been, you know, really getting quite personal with some of his criticisms of the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence, Richard Marles, and Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, who Paul Keating collectively, you know, has referred to in private as this kind of lick spittle kind of trio. You know, lick spittle is a favourite Keating putdown for anyone who shows the slightest hint of deference towards the, the US or the United Kingdom.

Audio Excerpt - Gareth Evans:

“I've referred elsewhere to Richard Marles. Defence Minister Richard Marles’ love of the United States has been so dewy-eyed as to defy parody.”

JASON:

And then there's Gareth Evans, the former Foreign Minister. He also got stuck into the The Albanese Governments being too cautious, defensive and wedge avoiding.

Audio Excerpt - Gareth Evans:

“And the Prime Minister himself, Albo, not only has never given much attention to the complexities of defence and foreign policy, very unusual for the Labor-left, but he does remain politically, deeply risk averse, preoccupied more than anything else with not being portrayed domestically as weak.”

JASON:

Another great Labor figure from the 1980s, Bill Kelty, he was never in federal politics but he was of course running the ACTU right throughout the 80s and the 90s and he's been saying a similar thing. In a speech, I think he gave last month, to a business forum he said, there's a lot of good talkers in the government but they don't do anything.

You know, you've also got people like Stephen Conroy and Alan Griffin who are both ministers in the Rudd and Gillard government. They're also on the sidelines trying to exert influence around pre-selections and policy decisions where they can. So it's quite a busy, kind of off-stage, collection of, of important Labor figures there who are all chipping in with their own interpretations of what the Government's doing and that they haven't been afraid to express their disappointment.

RUBY:

Okay, so how is this criticism, or I suppose it could also be construed as meddling, how is it landing? I can't really imagine that Albanese and his senior ministers would appreciate the feedback.

JASON:

Well, I think they're really starting to get pretty annoyed about it. You know, Labor insiders, you know, both in Canberra and around the country, quite frankly hate this. This constant carping from the sidelines, it's an annoying distraction for them and I think they just wish it would go away.

And, you know, one Labor veteran told me, and this was a person who was very close to the the Hawke and Keating governments, said to me, you know, what really struck me about the Hawke and Keating governments, and particularly the Hawke period, was that there were no Whitlam government ministers wandering around ship bagging the Prime Minister, his ministers, or their priorities. And he also felt that it's one thing to say the government is on the wrong track, but to descend into the highly personal attacks that we are saying is not at all helpful.

Another member of Labor's frontbench expressed, you know, the concern to me that it was nostalgia that was making them forget the pressures of leadership and just how hard it is to govern. And another Labor veteran, you know, flat out rejected this complaint that the Albanese government has shirked any and all major reform. And he said that that was just a kind of wilful blindness.

Of course, you know, some members of the current government, you know, they are also, to some of the criticisms that that Paul Keating has been been making, You know, one current minister in particular, told me that the problem is that Labor is becoming a top down invitation only society. And, as this person said to me, we're timid and we're woke and that's a pretty fucked position to be in according to to that minister.

RUBY:

After the break, how one Labor minister says the entire party structure is broken.

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RUBY:

So Jason, you've got a current Labor Minister on record saying that the Labor Party is essentially becoming more elite, more tightly controlled, both timid and woke as they put it. So tell me more about what this person says about what Labor's problem is, and how it got to this situation.

JASON:

Well I think what's happened here, if we look at the last, you know, 50 years of Labor history, we had the very undisciplined Whitlam government. And in reaction to that, the Hawke and Keating governments became much more disciplined. You know, ever since then the Labor Party has become more centralised and the national executive has acquired more power. The power to to overrule that the branches, the power to, to over overrule that the rank and file. And they did that for reasons of political expediency because they think, well, the more professional we are, the less chance there is that we'll preselect candidates that do something stupid.

But I guess the downside of that is that, you know, as this minister said to me last week, the truth is that the party doesn't really exist at the moment. It's either old people or ministerial staffers or the odd union secretary. No one, young and fresh, is actually joining the party anymore. There isn't that same diversity of background that, that other Labor governments have had. The party really is sick at the moment.

And according to this person, you know, these grey beards of the party are voicing their criticisms, it’s because they have a view of where the party should be. But the other point is, if they don't say anything, no one will. And as this person said to me, they're the last freedom fighters in the Labor Party today.

RUBY:

Okay. So, Jason, if we are to focus on today on this current moment and the criticisms that are being levelled at the Labor Party, that it's too timid, that it's scared of big reforms, is there any acknowledgement of that instinct from within? Did anyone who spoke to any current Labor figures defend a kind of softly, softly approach to reform?

JASON:

I think many inside the government believe that governing today is a lot different to governing in the 1980s and 90s. One former adviser to Anthony Albanese that I spoke to, Dean Sherr, you know, he said to me, well, look, the truth is that the government has been busy and that there are a lot of reforms on the table. Reforms to the way the NDIS is funded, changes to the way Medicare is operating, cost of living relief measures that have really made quite a difference to people who have been struggling through this cost of living crisis.

But, you know, as Dean Sherr said to me, the government does have to keep an eye on re-election. It is prudent politics to do so. And one of the the biggest lessons of the Rudd and Gillard years was that, according to Dean, that progress is fleeting if you lose power before you get the chance to cement any changes. And he used the example of the Gillard government.

You know, they lost government after two terms and bold moves that they had made, like the carbon tax, were quickly scrapped by Tony Abbott.

Audio Excerpt - Tony Abbot:

“This is a Labor-Green carbon tax and it’s gonna drive up prices, threaten jobs and do nothing at all for the environment.”

JASON:

The lesson that Dean Sherr took from that was that reforms have to be bedded down and future proofed so that a future government can't just come in and quickly repeal something like a carbon tax. And, you know, according to Dean, there is a case to be made that a softly, softly approach actually works in the long term.

And another Labor veteran told me that, you know, when it comes to gambling reform, it's only by waiting and carefully considering the options that it will end up with a policy that strikes a balance and actually has a hope of getting through the Senate and also lasting for years and decades to come. You know, this person said to me, that if the government had come out of the gate quickly when the report was released by the late Labor MP Peter Murphy 18 months ago, and moved to totally ban all online gambling as that report suggested, then they would have been attacked by every conservative politician in the country and probably wouldn't be in a position to really implement any meaningful reform.

RUBY:

Sure. I can't help but think it is a strange situation, though, and you have the people who seem to be speaking with real passion about change and reform are the ones who actually left the party a long time ago in some cases, and are approaching old age. I mean, we're talking about a group of former politicians who are in their 60s, their 70s, their 80s. So if these are the, quote, freedom fighters, what does that say to you about a problem at the heart of the Labor Party?

JASON:

So I think that one of the big problems here with the Labor Party today is it doesn't have that sense of energy and youth that reforming energetic political movements have. If you look at the Australian Greens and you go to any event that Adam Bandt is holding in public, the first thing you notice is there's a lot of passionate young people at those events. You know, volunteering, putting their hands up and wanting to be part of that movement that Adam Bandt leads. And that's something you never see at Labor Party events these days. It's mostly older people whose only real interest is to be closer to power. But you don't get the feeling that it's a vital, energetic political movement that wants to go out there and change the world in the way that the Labor Party used to be.

But I think, you know, the good thing about having people like Paul Keating, Gareth Evans, Bob Carr and Bill Kelty speaking out like this is they are likely to keep speaking out on issues that matter to them. And the net effect of what they've been saying is, that this has got Labor actually thinking harder about all this and and how to keep the Labor Party vital. So, indirectly, they are having a net positive effect by generating debate. And I think ultimately that's what's been missing from the Labor Party in, in recent years.

But we've now got a debate and I think, well, that's what politics is for, isn't it? So maybe there's a silver lining there and having these Labor Party elders speak out in this way isn't necessarily a bad thing for the Labor Party.

RUBY:

Jason, thank you so much for your time.

JASON:

Thanks Ruby. Always great to talk with you.

RUBY:

Also in the news today,

An Israeli airstrike in one of south Lebanon’s biggest cities has killed 16 people in the largest attack on an official Lebanese state building since the Israeli air campaign began.

The Mayor of Nabatieh was among those killed in the strike that destroyed the city’s municipal headquarters, wounding more than 50.

The Israeli military says the target was an Hezbollah underground tunnel network, but Lebanese officials say the attack is proof Israel’s campaign is now shifting to target the Lebanese state.

And, the Therapeutic Goods Administration has approved a new COVID-19 vaccine for Australians aged over 6 months set to be available in the coming months.

The new Pfizer vaccine is expected to provide more protection against the latest Omicron variants.

7am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

It’s produced by Cheyne Anderson, Zoltan Fecso, and Zaya Altangerel.

Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

We are edited by Chris Dengate and Sarah McVeigh.

Erik Jensen is our editor-in-chief.

Our mixer is Travis Evans.

Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio.

7am is hosted by Daniel James, and myself, Ruby Jones.

We’ll be back on Monday.