Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“Ok. What's the issue with the Newington private school thing? Becoming co-ed? Like, I genuinely don't get it.”

ANGE:

Videos of emotional protesters outside a private all-boys school in Sydney have gone viral...

Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“Thank you so much to the algorithm gods because watching those poor, poor boys and their parents get so upset about the fact that they're gonna have to go to school with girls has been highly entertaining.”

ANGE:

The protest was sparked by news the school is going co-ed… and it’s led to a debate about outdated attitudes in these institutions.

Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“It is so funny because like no way this is your biggest issue. Like no way you actually have a problem with your school going co-ed. Like hilarious.”

ANGE:

So, what does this story say about the culture in all-boys schools?

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ANGE:

From Schwartz Media, I’m Ange McCormack. This is 7am.

The topic of single-sex schooling is familiar to Chanel Contos - a consent advocate who has for years accused private boys schools of fostering a dangerous and toxic culture.

Today, founder of Teach Us Consent and author of Consent Laid Bare, Chanel Contos, on the argument against all-boys schools, and the structures of power and privilege they uphold.

It’s Tuesday, February 6.

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ANGE:

Chanel. We're going to discuss this story about Newington soon. But first I want to ask about your story. So you rose to fame and kind of launched your career off a question you asked on Instagram a few years ago. The question was, if you live in Sydney, have you or has anyone close to you ever experienced sexual assault from someone who went to an all boys school? I want to ask, why did you specifically want to ask about all boys schools when you made that post?

CHANEL:

It's a good question, actually.

I remember being with two friends at the time and it being a thing of how to phrase the end of that, because we were trying to talk about these very specific institutions, but then we were thinking, you know, we don't also just want to make this only about private schools and as public schools or, you know, grammar schools that are single-sex. And we know that we have friends who have had lots of problems with men from these spaces as well.

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“Some of Sydney’s most prestigious private schools rocked by allegations of sexual assault, 22 year old Chanel Contos helping bring those stories to light.”

Audio excerpt – Reporter:

“She was inundated with more than six and a half thousand testimonies, prompting her to launch a petition demanding that consent education be mandated in Australian schools.”

So I think the landing was to point out the fact that single-sex education institutions were breeding grounds for rape culture, whilst trying to be inclusive of schools that weren't that kind of like classic elite private.

ANGE:

And Chanel in the last few days have been protests at private boys school in Sydney, Newington College, which is planning to go co-ed eventually. Can you explain what kind of school Newington is and what the protesters were saying?

CHANEL:

Yeah, it's it's a hard thing. So basically, Newington has announced that it's going co-ed. A all boys school for the last 160 is is letting girls into its walls. And look, some of the parents in the protest were saying, you know, we weren't aware of this, were consulted. Fair enough. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know what the process was.

Audio excerpt – Ex-principal:

“We are protesting against the school's decision to, not notify the parents and gag the parents and the students from having a free voice to be heard about the school and the headmaster's decision to make the school co-ed.”

CHANEL:

But I think the more general kind of sentiment that was going along by the wider protest and then also online with comments and people saying things with the idea that, like, we just do not want girls here.

Audio excerpt – OLD BOY:

“It's a boys school. It's always been a boys school.”

Audio excerpt – OLD BOY 2:

“I'm an old boy at the school, and my son is also an old boy. And the intention was always that I’d have a grandson. But I won't bring him to co-ed school.”

Audio excerpt – OLD BOY 3:

“It's all part of this sort of woke, toxic masculinity type palaver.”

Audio excerpt – OLD BOY 4:

“I know my grandson was rejected from going to year three, in a couple of years time because they had thoughts of young ladies.”

CHANEL:

There's a few videos, and I think the reason that the internet kind of latched onto it, because it's kind of one thing to be a parent of the school and be directly involved in the decision. And another thing, to be a parent of an old boy and feel like quite far removed, or an old boy yourself with no, child at the school. It's also sad. It's reflective of misogyny. I was actually watching Misrepresented last week. And you know how a lot of that series has kind of stock footage from the past of people saying, like, either very misogynistic things or, you know, just a classic in a documentary. They always do the historical take of, like, what everyone's thinking.

Audio excerpt – Interviewer:

“From seven until nine every night from now on, women are allowed to invade a man's world. And what are some of the men who've been here for a long time have been breaking here for years. What do they feel about it?”

Audio excerpt – Unknown:

“I do not think women should be allowed to drink in bars.”

CHANEL:

There was a sign that said that the boys have become second class citizens at their own school. If girls were allowed into it, which I found extremely funny because women are second class citizens literally everywhere else in the world, in every other sphere and corner of the world. So I have no idea why anyone believes that the first cohort of girls entering Newington College will experience some sort of like matriarchy that is like never before been experienced in humans in Australia over the last couple hundred years.

ANGE:

So Chanel, the protest was attended by some old boys. These are ex-students and it was interesting to me because personally, I really couldn't care less about what my high school does now that I've left it. What does it say about the culture of these institutions that we see former students from decades ago feel so strongly about what's going on inside?

CHANEL:

Yeah. So just for context as well, I actually did my dissertation on elite schooling in Sydney and how it upholds rape culture. So I have done quite a bit of research, engineering and schools like it. And it's definitely a thing amongst like certain institutions versus other ones, the culture they curate of old students. But yeah, in the research, it really did show that the way that all boys interact with schools is quite unique.

Essentially taking a really large step back. We have to remember that, first of all, these all boys schools exist not because they were created for spaces specifically for boys, but because women weren't allowed to be educated at this time, whether at all or with boys, or it was an outlandish idea to educate them. And what's happened with institutions like this is that this very like direct power funnel is created out of these schools. The people that go to them and then the people who end up running our country, essentially, whether that means, you know, we've had more prime ministers go to elite or boys private school than we have female prime ministers in a single, single school. The amount of men who have come out of these schools that represent our largest companies in Australia are astronomical, and a lot of these boys have parents who run very successful businesses, and they just kind of automatically take them over, which again, means that there's this continuing cycle of power and privilege and upholding class. And then these schools are extremely inaccessible as well. So they do kind of create these pockets of power and privilege. And that manifests in multiple different ways.

Old boys tend to invest significantly more and donate significantly more. Than old girls of these kind of similar schools. And disclaimer, I am a proud Kambala old girl and I still engage with the school because my work is in education and consent and children.

But it is, I think, unique to places that feel as though they were really defined by their attendance there.

So it's, I think, more than just a question of like, should boys and girls be educated together? It's should we start accepting when these historically exclusive institutions open up their doors to more diversity?

ANGE:

After the break - the argument against single sex schools for boys.

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ANGE:

Chanel. If we leave the case of Newington to one side and talk more broadly about single sex versus co-ed schools, there's an argument clearly among some of these parents that we should separate boys and girls at school. Right. Can you explain what some of the arguments for single sex education are and what you make of them?

CHANEL:

Yeah.

So I think the arguments I hear tend to be that women, that the girls will distract the boys, which, is false because men learn better in the presence of women. But I guess that idea of kind of like distracting and thinking, like, if you just plunk girls into an all boys environment, then yeah, it probably will be distracting at first because it will be novelty. And again, that idea of the opposite sex as sex objects is happening in real-time just suddenly at school, not on the weekend. And it will take time to change that culture. And that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen. It just means there needs to be extreme measures and protections in place for the kind of first cohort that enters that space.

But I think another reason is just like, you know, the fun of a boys club, which I'm sure is really fun. And whether that's a good enough reason or not, I'm not sure. But I think that bringing women into any spaces tends to be more beneficial to the people in that space. So there's ample research to show that boys perform better academically with the influence of girls around them.

So there tends to be significant research and valid arguments to support single sex education for women, whereas they're not as valid or prominent arguments for men. Which would just leave us in a bind, because I was actually thinking about this yesterday.

I was like, okay, if Kambala said that they were going co-ed, how would I respond? And I would probably be happy for the school overall. I would be sure they did their due diligence. And also I think they would go through a, you know, if you did bring boys into an all girls space you would hope that they would go through a very strict onboarding process, because bringing boys into a girls space is dangerous for women.

And I am personally. Quiet pro safe spaces and single sex spaces for women. As someone who consistently goes into schools, I go into single sex schools. I go into co-ed schools.

So. I feel very thankful that from attending a single sex school, it was never on the radar to have to be around. Kind of everyday misogyny or everyday harassment or sexual assault. And then have to see your perpetrator the next day in English or science or maths or in the playground, whereas I consistently hear that that is the case for a lot of girls who go to co-ed schools. So that is difficult. But at the same time, it tends to be that men who socialise in a co-ed environment tend to have a better kind of understanding of women as humans, and therefore more likely to opt into gender equality.

ANGE:

So I guess broadly, you know, you're of the view that out of the three general schooling options, co-ed, all girls and all boys, it's all boys education. That's the one that has a kind of questionable place in Australia. I'm wondering, though, if single sex girls schools can be successful and really beneficial to girls? Shouldn't we aim for that for boys schools to and repair the culture inside them? You know, like, is it defeatist to just say, oh, that system isn't working, let's just transition them to co-ed?

CHANEL:

It's such a good question. And I so agree and in an ideal world that wouldn't be a problem with all boys schools, because they wouldn't be allowed to manifest and grow this kind of like culture of patriarchy and dismissiveness against women's opinions and bodies. So yeah, actually, ideally, maybe we should keep the all boys schools as they are if they want to transition, great. And we should invest significantly in trying to change the culture there. Again, acknowledging the power funnel that exists from them and what they will do to that will do to the future of Australia, 20, 30 years down the track. I mean, there's also massive questions about education in general, like from a theoretical place. I don't actually think we should have private education institutions, but then from a practical place we do. And I don't think we should just get rid of all of them overnight. But yeah, I mean, ideally we should be focusing on making these, making all schools and specifically boys schools, because it means that you're probably gonna have about double the students there who this information should be most relevant and important to, teaching and things like consent, and then teaching them things like gender equality, respect, growing, raising the next generation of feminists through these schools instead of making it be a really bad word, which it is in a lot of these places.

ANGE:

And, Chanel, finally, What would it take to fix some of these all boys institutions? Because, I mean, you're someone that goes into some of these places, you have contact with them. You can see how they compare to some other schools. How deep are these problems really? How fixable do you think it is?

CHANEL:

I think these problems are really deep, but I also think it is really fixable. If kind of like the critical mass is on board with it. So again, another thing that is different about these schools to state schools is that they run as businesses that are ultimately multimillion dollar businesses, and the clients are the parents, not the students. So, you know, things like reputation and stuff come into play a lot, much more than the actual student experience some of the time.

And that means we need the parents to really be on board and willing to let the teachers and the leadership of the school take on this kind of like affirmative approach towards gender equality and fostering healthy cultures and healthy masculinities.

I mean, what I think it takes is, dedicated feminist leader, you know, a principal of the school who most of the time will be a man that is willing to prioritise this, to have these kind of conversations, to reinforce messaging about equality, not just in terms of gender, but in terms of class and race and all these different things. Throughout the school year, you know, organises for speakers to come in and organises educational experiences that will hopefully form and shape these young people.

ANGE:

Chanel, thank you so much for your time today.

CHANEL:

Thank you so much for having me.

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ANGE:

Also in the new today,

Foreign Minister Penny Wong says she is ‘appalled’ that Australian citizen Dr Yang Hengjun has received a suspended death sentence in China.

Dr Yang, who is a writer, was arrested in 2019 in China and charged with espionage, which he has always denied. The suspended death sentence can be converted to a life in prison sentence, pending 2 years of good behaviour.

And…

The Australian Federal Police have been asked about the arrest of a 14 year old autistic boy, whose parents asked police for help after he became drawn to Islamic State videos.

Greens senator David Shoebridge asked whether officers had entrapped the boy, accusing police of ‘radicalising’ him themselves – AFP deputy commissioner Ian Mccartney rejected that characterisation saying that wasn’t their “intent”.

I’m Ange McCormack, this is 7am. We’ll be back again tomorrow with an episode revealing a disturbing pattern of abuse, cover-ups, and neglect in Tasmania. Thanks for listening, see you then.

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